Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 131118 times)

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #575 on: March 04, 2022, 12:12:49 PM »
Yea, there are a lot of moving pieces there for sure. I'm not sure how you can believe NATO moving forces onto Russians border in such a strategic location would not be considered a threat.
The threat is not having a NATO member on their border, which as I pointed out they already enjoy.  Granted, not as strategically placed as Ukraine might be, but it's not nothing. 

The threat Putin is responding to here is to their government's economic well-being which relies massively on their government control of the energy sector and the fact that Europe is hungry for that energy.  They cannot abide a potential competitor for Europe's energy money.  This is using military force to protect market share, not trying to keep NATO from marching on Moscow.
Western influence/control of Ukraine's energy having the potential of savaging Russia's GDP isn't considered a Russian security concern?
You're missing the point.  That doesn't require Ukrainian NATO membership at all.  For that matter, it doesn't even require Western influence.  Simply a Ukrainian government that cares about Ukrainian interests ahead of Russian. 

Ukraine had placed significant tariffs on Russian gas pumped through their pipelines, so Russia decided to build around them. 

Significant natural gas fields offshore of Crimea were seized by Russia when they annexed Crimea thereby cutting Ukraine off from most of their offshore reserves in the Black Sea. 

Ukraine begins to develop their shale oil fields - most of which are found in eastern Ukraine where - surprise, surprise, Russia decides to set up a couple of breakaway puppet states and then invade.

The problem is not the West pushing NATO on Ukraine, it is Putin being frustrated that a non-puppet Ukraine could cut the state-owned energy companies off at the knees.  It was a non-puppet Ukraine that legitimately feared Russian aggression that sought protection from NATO and now the EU.
I'm no fan of Putin or Russia but the more I look into this the more it looks like it is the west who has insisted on pushing the issue.
I'm not blind as to the US having terrible, inconsistent, and often counter-productive foreign policy.  However, I don't think this conflict had beans to do with NATO or the west.

Angel Eyes

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #576 on: March 04, 2022, 12:31:47 PM »
The Nazis were initially seen in the Baltics as liberating them from the Soviet yoke but things went downhill from there. 

I know.

My point was that being under the Soviet yoke for several decades produces more resentment than a few years under the Germans.
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Angel Eyes

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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #578 on: March 04, 2022, 01:25:44 PM »
Time for a little levity:

https://babylonbee.com/news/4d-chess-us-mexico-border-disguised-as-ukrainian-border-so-democrats-will-defend-it

On a serious note, I wonder how many more illegals and terrorists are swarming the Southern border unchecked now that the MSM and politicians have another focus?
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Nick1911

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #579 on: March 04, 2022, 01:29:08 PM »
From translated Dutch media:
Quote
Nato and the EU are meeting on Friday. The Netherlands will be represented by minister Wobke Hoekstra

Exceptionally US minister Blinken will join and Ukrainian minister of foreign affairs Dmytro Kubelo joins through a video conference

They will discuss what more actions can be taken against Russia. Military intervention by the Nato is no longer out of the question

sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #580 on: March 04, 2022, 01:37:09 PM »

Angel Eyes

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #581 on: March 04, 2022, 01:40:27 PM »
Interesting, since NATO has officially rejected a no-fly zone over Ukraine:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/nato-meets-ukraine-calls-no-fly-zone-hinder-russia-2022-03-04/

Are they contemplating some other form of intervention?  Seems to me that the no-fly zone would have been the easiest to implement.
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #582 on: March 04, 2022, 01:44:42 PM »
Well if NATO gets involved, this will kind of be turning into a "blood for oil" thing. I saw the German Ambassador to the US interviewed this morning, and pressed hard, she admitted that Germany will not be pulling out of any energy agreements with Russia, no matter what other sanctions they enforce. I suspect most of the EU will be doing similar. And of course we are too.
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Nick1911

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #583 on: March 04, 2022, 01:51:31 PM »
Interesting, since NATO has officially rejected a no-fly zone over Ukraine:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/nato-meets-ukraine-calls-no-fly-zone-hinder-russia-2022-03-04/

Are they contemplating some other form of intervention?  Seems to me that the no-fly zone would have been the easiest to implement.

Don't know, might just be saber rattling.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #584 on: March 04, 2022, 01:52:44 PM »
Well if NATO gets involved, this will kind of be turning into a "blood for oil" thing. I saw the German Ambassador to the US interviewed this morning, and pressed hard, she admitted that Germany will not be pulling out of any energy agreements with Russia, no matter what other sanctions they enforce. I suspect most of the EU will be doing similar. And of course we are too.

And the higher oil goes up the more money Russia makes
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Angel Eyes

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #585 on: March 04, 2022, 02:05:41 PM »
might just be saber rattling.

(Angel Eyes crosses his fingers)
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RocketMan

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #586 on: March 04, 2022, 02:12:07 PM »
Before the Russians invaded, Ukraine was not going to join NATO in the near term.  It was also unlikely they would have been able to join anytime in the next 6-8 years as they do not meet all of the requirements for membership.
They have some serious debt, finance and governmental corruption issues to overcome before they would become eligible to join NATO.
All this talk about Ukraine joining NATO and enabling NATO to be a bigger threat to Russia is nonsense.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #587 on: March 04, 2022, 02:17:51 PM »
All this talk about Ukraine joining NATO and enabling NATO to be a bigger threat to Russia is nonsense.
Agreed.  Which is not to say that we didn't interfere with Ukraine.  Obama's state department and good ol' Joe Biden himself did mess with them and helped force out the previous leader.  (Hmm ... I wonder how Hunter got that position?).

Both Russia and the US have meddled in Ukraine.  In both cases probably to the detriment of Ukraine.  That said, finding justification for Putin's actions in that is preposterous.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #588 on: March 04, 2022, 02:24:12 PM »
How much talk was there of Ukraine joining NATO before Putin invaded and annexed The Crimea?
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #589 on: March 04, 2022, 04:56:57 PM »
Wait for it

Germany Rearms 2022: Assessment & Historical Context
https://youtu.be/mDUElJY4xNQ?t=823

Brutal but :rofl:

BTW: The whole video is worth a watch
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #590 on: March 04, 2022, 05:44:40 PM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #591 on: March 04, 2022, 06:52:42 PM »
Seems like a vast majority of Americans across the political spectrum don't have an inkling of the potential escalating consequences of a no fly zone.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/03/04/new-poll-finds-74-of-americans-want-a-nato-led-no-fly-zone-over-ukraine/
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Nick1911

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #592 on: March 04, 2022, 06:54:13 PM »
Seems like a vast majority of Americans across the political spectrum don't have an inkling of the potential escalating consequences of a no fly zone.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/03/04/new-poll-finds-74-of-americans-want-a-nato-led-no-fly-zone-over-ukraine/

FTFY  =D

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #593 on: March 04, 2022, 07:07:32 PM »
Seriously, until today you lot have done a very good job of posting key events of the day, which meant I didn't have to go look *expletive deleted*it up myself...

But today ya'll have dropped the ball.

Also, Ron, the "globilist" overlords do not want war with the asshat they pay for energy. Which is how they got caught with their pants down.

*shrug* This ends four ways:

1. Ukraine makes like Finland did and beats Russian ass.
2. Russia claims the smoking rubble that was once Ukraine.
3. WWIII
4. There is a change of management in the Kremlin.

I'm hoping for 1 or 4.
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #594 on: March 04, 2022, 07:13:28 PM »
How much talk was there of Ukraine joining NATO before Putin invaded and annexed The Crimea?
It was NATO's official position to bring Ukraine into NATO.

Bucharest Summit Declaration
Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008

Quote
NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.  Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations.  We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May.  MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership.  Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP.  Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications.  We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting.  Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #595 on: March 04, 2022, 07:18:53 PM »
It was NATO's official position to bring Ukraine into NATO.

Bucharest Summit Declaration
Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

Okay. I don't recall Putin using that as the excuse why he invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed a chunk of it. He may have I just don't recall.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #596 on: March 04, 2022, 07:20:34 PM »
Russian has banned facebook, twitter, and youtube.
Is APS next?  :O
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #597 on: March 04, 2022, 07:25:19 PM »
Okay. I don't recall Putin using that as the excuse why he invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed a chunk of it. He may have I just don't recall.

The coup that removed his democratically elected ally from office was the impetus for the Crimea invasion.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #598 on: March 04, 2022, 07:27:29 PM »
The coup that removed his democratically elected ally from office was the impetus for the Crimea invasion.

So take and annex the Crimea  :O
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #599 on: March 04, 2022, 07:31:49 PM »
So taking the Crimea would fix that?  :O

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For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.