Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 133511 times)

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #925 on: March 16, 2022, 11:14:16 AM »
The invasion came after more than a decade of Russia requesting neutrality and security guarantees that the west rebuffed in an aggressive manner.


Russian has been demanding control of the "Sudetenland Land" for some time now. That issue had zip to do with NATO membership. Putin was going to have them one way or another.
Bear in mind Ukraine has had 30 yeas to join NATO and it hadn't. If NATO membership had anything to do with it it was only because Putin felt it was either now or never to go for the disputed territories. Probably the only that's delayed him this long was the threat of NATO
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AJ Dual

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #926 on: March 16, 2022, 11:16:20 AM »
Well, you can probably trust the "no invasion" thing, but only because it'll be decades before Russia can afford to do it again.

Granted, it took us a month to sweep through Iraq in our wars with them, and people considering the Russian invasion as "stalled" at only two weeks is a bit premature. OTOH, even if you take propaganda, and anecdotal twitter video of engagements for what it's worth (not much) it is still pretty safe to say it's not going well for the Russians.

Dead generals, and Baofeng walkie-talkies transmitting in clear analog channels doesn't bode well for them at all.

If Ukraine can hold on for a month more, I think the Russian advance is just going to fall apart even more than it has already. Logistically, Russia is already in deep doo-doo, and another month, they'll be combat ineffective.

There's also the issue that on the maps showing Russian captured territory, it's arguably really just thin lines of roads they've captured, with all the countryside in between going untouched. There's a lot of area in the Russian "rear" where Ukrainian forces can maneuver and put hurt on them if they can leverage home-field advantage and get there, especially with western aid and weapons.

At least that's my prediction I'm willing to put into writing.

It remains to be seen what China's relationship with Russia is going to be. China's a net importer of food and fuel, with no real ability to reverse it. And grain and oil from Russia made cheap by the devalued Ruble is what they need. OTOH, China's sitting on some really bad bubbles, real-estate which is collapsing in slow-mo due to the command economy aspects of the CCP, ghost cities, and their own monetary manipulations of the Yuan.

I think China's going to be "in check" for awhile. Their economy is so precarious, if they act out and get sanctions, anything substantial threatens to bring down their entire economy. I don't expect a move on Taiwan at all. An amphibious landing on an island with modern western weapons is apples and oranges to Ukraine.

I also suspect, that while much better than Russia, China may also have some logistical and quality problems in their military.

https://youtu.be/n96m5lB8nzA

Purely anecdotal of course, but TWO separate Chinese MRE's with green rotten pork in them that put Steve in the hospital hints there may be problems with graft and "lowest bidder" suppliers in China.

And presumably the Ukraine invasion is going to screw up their grain exports as well this coming summer. Between that and Russia coming up short, and under sanctions, food prices/supply are going to be screwed in Asia and the Middle East.
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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #927 on: March 16, 2022, 11:16:35 AM »
The invasion came after more than a decade of Russia requesting neutrality and security guarantees that the west rebuffed in an aggressive manner.
I'm no expert, so I'm not quite sure what "rebuffed in an aggressive manner" means in this context.

Do you believe that if Ukraine had formally denounced any possibility of ever joining any NATO, EU, or similar alliance that Russia would have been less likely to invade?

AJ Dual

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #928 on: March 16, 2022, 11:19:05 AM »
I'm no expert, so I'm not quite sure what "rebuffed in an aggressive manner" means in this context.

Do you believe that if Ukraine had formally denounced any possibility of ever joining any NATO, EU, or similar alliance that Russia would have been less likely to invade?

The other thing would have been for Ukraine to retain their pro-Kremlin puppet government.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #929 on: March 16, 2022, 11:23:39 AM »
Have you been talking about buying a gun for protection from a neighbor who has guns aimed at you and has been threatening to kill you?
If you answer yes then that neighbor is justified in killing you.

 ;/
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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #930 on: March 16, 2022, 11:25:01 AM »
The other thing would have been for Ukraine to retain their pro-Kremlin puppet government.
That, I believe, would probably have been acceptable to the Russians.

Of course, the US would never overthrow an unfriendly government.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #931 on: March 16, 2022, 11:36:06 AM »
Ed Nash

U.S. to Supply Switchblade “Kamikaze Drones” to Ukraine?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5TTaNpQuWI
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Brad Johnson

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #932 on: March 16, 2022, 12:20:48 PM »
Another general zapped.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/cm/kremlin-loses-another-general-ukraine-071432726.html

Quote
Captain Alexander Garnaev - a famous military test pilot and recipient of the Kremlin’s highest honour, the Hero of Russia award - denounced the “completely incomprehensible” war.

It's telling when Russian military top brass, even retired ones, begin openly denouncing the invasion. That hints at enough dissent among Russian military to potentially initiate them taking action internally.

Brad
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 12:37:12 PM by Brad Johnson »
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #933 on: March 16, 2022, 01:04:46 PM »
Quote
That hints at enough dissent among Russian military to potentially initiate them taking action internally.

Are there enough (any?) checks and balances in place to keep Putin from getting desperate and initiating a scorched Earth operation?
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #934 on: March 16, 2022, 01:06:47 PM »
Another general zapped.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/cm/kremlin-loses-another-general-ukraine-071432726.html

It's telling when Russian military top brass, even retired ones, begin openly denouncing the invasion. That hints at enough dissent among Russian military to potentially initiate them taking action internally.

Brad


At this point I'm really afraid to get my hopes up for any of that to happen. I mean it would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #935 on: March 16, 2022, 01:08:12 PM »
Are there enough (any?) checks and balances in place to keep Putin from getting desperate and initiating a scorched Earth operation?

I would think, hope?, that would be the point Putin commits suicide so to speak
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #936 on: March 16, 2022, 01:36:31 PM »
Quote
    I understand times are hard, but doesn't the President of the #Ukraine own a suit? I don't have much respect for current members of the U.S. Congress either, but I still wouldn't address them wearing a t-shirt. I wouldn't want to disrespect the institution or the Unites States.

    — Peter Schiff (@PeterSchiff) March 16, 2022
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/16/economist-peter-schiff-understands-times-are-hard-in-ukraine-but-like-the-least-president-zelenskyy-could-do-is-wear-a-suit-to-address-congress/

The man live in a *expletive deleted*ing bunker  :facepalm:
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Perd Hapley

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #937 on: March 16, 2022, 02:22:04 PM »
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/16/economist-peter-schiff-understands-times-are-hard-in-ukraine-but-like-the-least-president-zelenskyy-could-do-is-wear-a-suit-to-address-congress/

The man live in a *expletive deleted*ing bunker  :facepalm:

He could probably have worn something a little spiffier than a t-shirt, but I'm guessing his choice of wardrobe was intentional. 
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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #938 on: March 16, 2022, 03:39:35 PM »
Interesting take from Task and Purpose.  Gives some info from the Russian side as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igq2fqa7RY4

MillCreek

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #939 on: March 16, 2022, 04:09:47 PM »
https://jalopnik.com/one-ukraine-part-is-stopping-europe-s-car-factories-1848660374

It turns out Ukraine is a major supplier of car wiring harnesses for European auto makers.
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #940 on: March 16, 2022, 04:18:03 PM »
I'm no expert, so I'm not quite sure what "rebuffed in an aggressive manner" means in this context.

Do you believe that if Ukraine had formally denounced any possibility of ever joining any NATO, EU, or similar alliance that Russia would have been less likely to invade?
Russia had suggested on several occasions that Russia and the west cooperate on helping Ukraine develop economically and maintain a neutral status.  Russia has said all along that they would not tolerate NATO taking over Ukraine due to it's strategic location. Before you go "Ukraine can choose blah blah blah", think about Russian missiles and troops in Cuba. Even if we don't agree with Russia here it should be considered a legitimate concern. It never was.  Nobody in the west pursued the line of cooperation and in fact Ukraine was encouraged to pursue EU and NATO membership instead. It is also not outside the realm of possibility that the coup that occurred preceding Russia seizing Crimea was a western intelligence services operation. This isn't conspiracy theory talk, it is tossed out there regularly in serious publications. 

A bully encouraged Ukraine to poke another bully and everyone is surprised the bully that got poked is bullying back.

I don't have a dog in this fight and would have preferred a course of action that mollified Russia's security concerns and still helped Ukraine economically.

We'll never know if Russia was serious about letting Ukraine be free and neutral. We rejected that possibility in favor of absorbing them into the western sphere of economic/military influence, Russia's security fears or concerns be damned.



 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

DittoHead

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #941 on: March 16, 2022, 04:49:43 PM »
We'll never know if Russia was serious about letting Ukraine be free and neutral. 
When Ukraine gave up their nukes and Russia signed onto the Budapest Memorandum, there was no clause nullifying it if they got too friendly with NATO or the west. I don't see why Russia deserves any benefit of the doubt in honoring theoretical security assurances when they don't even honor the ones that actually exist.
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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #942 on: March 16, 2022, 04:57:32 PM »
It is also not outside the realm of possibility that the coup that occurred preceding Russia seizing Crimea was a western intelligence services operation. This isn't conspiracy theory talk, it is tossed out there regularly in serious publications. 
Sure.  The west has likely meddled in Ukrainian politics.  The Russians have been doing it for years too.
A bully encouraged Ukraine to poke another bully and everyone is surprised the bully that got poked is bullying back.
I guess that simplification depends on where you want to start telling the story, doesn't it?  Which coup or poisoning or corrupt election you want to call the beginning.
We'll never know if Russia was serious about letting Ukraine be free and neutral. We rejected that possibility in favor of absorbing them into the western sphere of economic/military influence, Russia's security fears or concerns be damned.
That's the trick, isn't it?  If Russia had been negotiating in good faith then our refusal to consider the Russian concerns was likely an instigating factor.

If, on the other hand, Russia was planning to seize all or parts of Ukraine all along, then keeping the issue of Ukrainian membership in NATO/EU vague may have served to dissuade Russia from acting (at least at times that they considered the US president to be a threat).

I don't personally get the impression that Putin does things in good faith.

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #943 on: March 16, 2022, 05:20:59 PM »
This is a war the west wanted. Nothing was done to avert it and everything was done to provoke it.

I've been tricked (ie lied to) by the bloody neocon foreign policy establishment one to many times. 

and then just like that everybody believed the congenital liars again and followed them into another war...

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #944 on: March 16, 2022, 05:51:12 PM »
This is a war the west wanted. Nothing was done to avert it and everything was done to provoke it.

I've been tricked (ie lied to) by the bloody neocon foreign policy establishment one to many times. 

and then just like that everybody believed the congenital liars again and followed them into another war...
Sorry, I don't follow you.

This conflict (one thus far limited to yet another Russian invasion of Ukraine and a western response currently limited to sanctions on Russia and supply of munitions to Ukraine) may well have been one that could have been avoided, but I see absolutely nothing other than your claims to indicate that it was a conflict sought by the west.  Nor do I think western diplomacy is capable of puppeting Putin the way your assertion requires. 

I don't want war, don't want US to send any troops into combat, and certainly don't want to push Putin into a nuclear corner.  That said, for all his faults, keep in mind that Biden did at least tell the truth about coming Russian aggression back when Russia was still lying about it being just a training exercise.

I think that this is a war that Putin wanted and thought would be over before the west would take notice.  Sure, if he could have maintained a puppet government to control Ukraine he probably would have.  And maybe it should have been western policy to look the other way while Russia installed governments they can control in their neighbors.  Those nations are going to be corrupt no matter whose puppet is in control.  However, Russian tanks rolling on Kiev is not the fault of the US, except perhaps inasmuch as Putin believed Biden would pose no threat to the operation.

Nick1911

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #945 on: March 16, 2022, 05:55:48 PM »
in fact Ukraine was encouraged to pursue EU and NATO membership instead.

Is this true?  I had recalled reading that while Ukraine was actively seeking membership starting in 2014 after the Russia military was preforming operations in Ukraine, but NATO was rather uninterested.

The 2014 government that was a result of the Maidan Uprising, where 400-800k people came out in the freezing cold to protest against the corrupt Yanukovych.  Who later fled to Russia and asked Putin to send Russian troops to invade Ukraine.

I'm sure that both the US and Russia have had influences on Ukraine, but the people certainly seem to wish to be more aligned with Europe and the west, and Russia seems to have pushed them even further in that direction.

None of that is an argument for NATO involvement, but I think it's very inaccurate to look at this through the sole lens of US policy.  This situation wasn't created by US politicians for their own gain.  They'll sure try to capitalize on it, though.

Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #946 on: March 16, 2022, 06:16:32 PM »
Petro dollar status

You mean Petro-Yen status, because the Saudis are currently negotiating with China to base oil prices on the Yen instead of the Dollar. Because with Brandon in office, we're back to Obama policies regarding the ME, and it seems the ME is telling us to get bent.
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #947 on: March 16, 2022, 06:25:28 PM »
*Yuan

AZRedhawk44

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #948 on: March 16, 2022, 06:35:51 PM »
You mean Petro-Yen status, because the Saudis are currently negotiating with China to base oil prices on the Yen instead of the Dollar. Because with Brandon in office, we're back to Obama policies regarding the ME, and it seems the ME is telling us to get bent.

Yuan.

Yen is Japanese.
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #949 on: March 16, 2022, 06:52:56 PM »
Yeah, sorry. I wasn't proofreading.
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