Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 130999 times)

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #950 on: March 16, 2022, 07:49:51 PM »
So Ron do you think if there was no talk of Ukraine joining NATO and/or the EU Putin wouldn't have grabbed Crimea in 2014 and be currently trying to take over the Donbas region and possibly the whole of Ukraine?
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Jim147

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #951 on: March 16, 2022, 07:56:47 PM »
So ron is saying their are no Nato countries in range to effect russia?
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #952 on: March 16, 2022, 08:40:03 PM »
Russia's state TV hit by stream of resignations
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60763494
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De Selby

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #953 on: March 16, 2022, 08:55:04 PM »
Have to agree with Ron here - US intervention (especially by Clinton led state department) has been central to arriving at this point.

Some links from well before the current war:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

Quote
That might be more explicable if what is going on in eastern Ukraine now were not the mirror image of what took place in Kiev a couple of months ago. Then, it was armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown, just as they now back the unelected government's use of force against rebels occupying police stations and town halls in cities such as Slavyansk and Donetsk.
"America is with you," Senator John McCain told demonstrators then, standing shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the far-right Svoboda party as the US ambassador haggled with the state department over who would make up the new Ukrainian government.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

Quote
The extent of the Obama administration’s meddling in Ukraine’s politics was breathtaking. Russian intelligence intercepted and leaked to the international media a Nuland telephone call in which she and U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Geoffey Pyatt discussed in detail their preferences for specific personnel in a post‐​Yanukovych government. The U.S‑favored candidates included Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the man who became prime minister once Yanukovych was ousted from power. During the telephone call, Nuland stated enthusiastically that “Yats is the guy” who would do the best job.

https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

Quote
The man facing down Putin’s aggression as secretary of the Ukrainian National Security and Defence Council is Andriy Parubiy. He oversees national security for the nation having previously served as security commandant during the anti-government protests in Kiev.

Parubiy was the founder of the Social National Party of Ukraine, a fascist party styled on Hitler’s Nazis, with membership restricted to ethnic Ukrainians.

The Social National Party would go on to become Svoboda, the far-right nationalist party whose leader Oleh Tyahnybok was one of the three most high profile leaders of the Euromaidan protests – negotiating directly with the Yanukovych regime.


You can imagine what the US reaction would be if a Russian-funded protest of armed men ousted the Canadian Government, then went to war on Canadian states that opted to side with the USA. Add to that said Government announcing its plan to have a security alliance with Russia that meant Russian forces stationed on the border with New York.

Yet none of that reflection is possible in the press reports about the current war. It’s truly a full spectrum propaganda effort to make this about Democracy vs dictatorship, when the reality is it’s just plain old competing institutional powers.


« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 09:08:04 PM by De Selby »
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De Selby

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #954 on: March 16, 2022, 09:10:14 PM »
So Ron do you think if there was no talk of Ukraine joining NATO and/or the EU Putin wouldn't have grabbed Crimea in 2014 and be currently trying to take over the Donbas region and possibly the whole of Ukraine?

You do realise that those areas of Ukraine voted to reject the 2014 coup, and that in response the new US backed government went to war on their localities to try and force them to be part of the new, unelected Ukrainian government?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #955 on: March 16, 2022, 09:14:02 PM »
You do realise that those areas of Ukraine voted to reject the 2014 coup, and that in response the new US backed government went to war on their localities to try and force them to be part of the new, unelected Ukrainian government?

Is that a yes or a no?
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sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #956 on: March 16, 2022, 09:15:23 PM »
Holy crap.  Something I actually agree fully with DeSelby on.

De Selby

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #957 on: March 16, 2022, 09:17:26 PM »
Is that a yes or a no?

That’s absolutely a yes, it would not have happened. It did happen because a US-backed armed coup tossed out the elected government and then started talking about the EU and NATO.

Had there been no such talk, there would’ve been no coup nor civil war for Russia to intervene in.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

RoadKingLarry

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #958 on: March 16, 2022, 09:17:42 PM »
Holy crap.  Something I actually agree fully with DeSelby on.

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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #959 on: March 16, 2022, 09:22:02 PM »
That’s absolutely a yes, it would not have happened. It did happen because a US-backed armed coup tossed out the elected government and then started talking about the EU and NATO.

Had there been no such talk, there would’ve been no coup nor civil war for Russia to intervene in.

So Russia will be giving back Crimea and the Donbas region and leave Ukraine alone when they're done?
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #960 on: March 16, 2022, 09:45:53 PM »
So Russia will be giving back Crimea and the Donbas region and leave Ukraine alone when they're done?

How about the bits of Georgia they stole before that?

kgbsquirrel

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #961 on: March 16, 2022, 09:47:18 PM »
Have to agree with Ron here - US intervention (especially by Clinton led state department) has been central to arriving at this point.

Some links from well before the current war:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right


You can imagine what the US reaction would be if a Russian-funded protest of armed men ousted the Canadian Government, then went to war on Canadian states that opted to side with the USA. Add to that said Government announcing its plan to have a security alliance with Russia that meant Russian forces stationed on the border with New York.

Yet none of that reflection is possible in the press reports about the current war. It’s truly a full spectrum propaganda effort to make this about Democracy vs dictatorship, when the reality is it’s just plain old competing institutional powers.

Isn't that pretty much exactly what is happening in Canada now, except with China instead of Russia?

Nick1911

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #962 on: March 16, 2022, 10:22:55 PM »
https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

I read this article, and am still confused what exactly the US did to install a pro-western government that lead to the eventual russian invasion of 2022?

Quote
Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych was not an admirable character. After his election in 2010, he used patronage and other instruments of state power in a flagrant fashion to the advantage of his political party. That high‐​handed behavior and legendary corruption alienated large portions of Ukraine’s population. As the Ukrainian economy languished and fell farther and farther behind those of Poland and other East European neighbors that had implemented significant market‐​oriented reforms, public anger at Yanukovych mounted. When he rejected the European Union’s terms for an association agreement in late 2013, in favor of a Russian offer, angry demonstrators filled Kiev’s Independence Square, known as the Maidan, as well as sites in other cities.

And then:

  • John McCain went to Kiev and had dinner with opposition leaders.
  • Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs handed out cookies to demonstrators
  • U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Geoffey Pyatt discussed with Nuland who they'd rather have in a post‐​Yanukovych government.

The US didn't stage some coup in Ukraine.  The Ukrainian people got upset and started protesting.  US leadership acknowledged that they agreed with the protesters, made some speeches, said some things, and talked privately to each other about what they'd like to see happen.  None of which is controlling, managing or directing the affairs of that country - no more than when any government has press releases and says things.

Angel Eyes

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #963 on: March 16, 2022, 10:46:09 PM »
Interesting take from Task and Purpose.  Gives some info from the Russian side as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igq2fqa7RY4

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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #964 on: March 16, 2022, 11:04:28 PM »
For those arguing that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the fault of the US because we meddled in Ukrainian politics, does Russia bear no burden for … meddling in Ukraine’s politics?  And then, you know, invading Ukraine?

sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #965 on: March 16, 2022, 11:13:06 PM »
For those arguing that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the fault of the US because we meddled in Ukrainian politics, does Russia bear no burden for … meddling in Ukraine’s politics?  And then, you know, invading Ukraine?

Those are not mutually exclusive positions.

De Selby

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #966 on: March 16, 2022, 11:23:49 PM »
I read this article, and am still confused what exactly the US did to install a pro-western government that lead to the eventual russian invasion of 2022?

And then:

  • John McCain went to Kiev and had dinner with opposition leaders.
  • Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs handed out cookies to demonstrators
  • U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Geoffey Pyatt discussed with Nuland who they'd rather have in a post‐​Yanukovych government.

The US didn't stage some coup in Ukraine.  The Ukrainian people got upset and started protesting.  US leadership acknowledged that they agreed with the protesters, made some speeches, said some things, and talked privately to each other about what they'd like to see happen.  None of which is controlling, managing or directing the affairs of that country - no more than when any government has press releases and says things.

The reason that nuland was having that conversation is that the USA was the major financial backer of the coup that brought the 2014 government to power. Hence they had a large say over who would take leadership roles. The reason we found that out is that the Russians intercepted and then leaked Nuland’s call.
https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent-65m-to-aid-ukrainian-groups.amp

Yes, it’s true that the armed protestors who overthrew the government in 2014 had to choose to be there, but that would be equally true of a Russian-funded, Russian trained political party in Canada.

I really don’t think the Bush and then Obama state departments spent those millions because they expected nothing in return for the US/Ukraine relationship. There’s certainly something Biden got out of it, and it’s not hard to see how funding that revolution set the stage for placing NATO in an economic and geographical centre that is essential to the Russian economy.

Again, apply the same logic to a Canadian coup and it seems entirely predictable this would lead to war. It has nothing to do with democracy or principles.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #967 on: March 16, 2022, 11:24:48 PM »
For those arguing that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the fault of the US because we meddled in Ukrainian politics, does Russia bear no burden for … meddling in Ukraine’s politics?  And then, you know, invading Ukraine?

Of course they do. That’s why I say this is great power competition and not an idealistic or even ideological struggle.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #968 on: March 16, 2022, 11:27:26 PM »
So Russia will be giving back Crimea and the Donbas region and leave Ukraine alone when they're done?

Those regions rebelled against the central government and joined Russia on their own terms, so probably not. You’re forgetting that this was a civil war between people who supported the coup and who rejected the coup in favour of the elected government before the current war.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Nick1911

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #969 on: March 16, 2022, 11:54:35 PM »
The reason that nuland was having that conversation is that the USA was the major financial backer of the coup that brought the 2014 government to power. Hence they had a large say over who would take leadership roles. The reason we found that out is that the Russians intercepted and then leaked Nuland’s call.
https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent-65m-to-aid-ukrainian-groups.amp

Yes, it’s true that the armed protestors who overthrew the government in 2014 had to choose to be there, but that would be equally true of a Russian-funded, Russian trained political party in Canada.

I really don’t think the Bush and then Obama state departments spent those millions because they expected nothing in return for the US/Ukraine relationship. There’s certainly something Biden got out of it, and it’s not hard to see how funding that revolution set the stage for placing NATO in an economic and geographical centre that is essential to the Russian economy.

Again, apply the same logic to a Canadian coup and it seems entirely predictable this would lead to war. It has nothing to do with democracy or principles.

The Russians were throwing money at their guy too.  A lot more money than the US.

From 2013:
"After talks between Mr Putin and Mr Yanukovych in the Kremlin, it was announced Russia would buy $15bn-worth (£9.2bn; 10.9bn euros) of Ukrainian government bonds.  The cost of Russian gas supplied to Ukraine has been slashed from more than $400 (£245; 291 euros) per 1,000 cubic metres to $268.5."

Also... the US spends millions of dollars on many foreign government programs which I don't see an expectation of quid pro quo in.

Still not seeing how a pro-western Ukraine is something the US manufactured which forced Russia's hand. 

French G.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #970 on: March 17, 2022, 09:08:12 AM »
Russia wants warm water ports and vacation towns. Russia wants a monopoly on energy production as witnessed by already moving oil rigs into Ukrainian EEZ in the Black Sea and attacking nuclear plants. All the stupid meddling our state department did in Ukraine was a faint flicker of a green light as compared to the complete inaction when the little green men had free run of the Donbas for years, when we barely yawned when Crimea was stolen, zero thought given to Georgia, nobody cares when a head of state gets polonium tea, etc...  But here we are with the whataboutism.

My fear now is Biden needs a war to stay in power. Putin might have to have one to stave off the internal problems he has.

If he had been economically crushed in 2014 like he is now we wouldn’t be here.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Lennyjoe

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #971 on: March 17, 2022, 09:13:44 AM »
The harsh realities of war. 

https://fb.watch/bOXcgSZkeB/

Radio free Europe Liberty Radio story on the Ukrainian guy who lost his whole family due to indirect artillery fire from the Russians.  NSFW with some disturbing images.

No one wins in war and the innocent suffer. 

Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #972 on: March 17, 2022, 09:26:25 AM »
I just ran into this regarding a deepfake surrender video by Zelenskyy:

https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/16/facebook-zelensky-deepfake/

The few deepfakes that I have seen in the past were quite convincing to me. On one - I think Tom Cruise - the only reason I could tell it was a deepfake is because of the outrageous language the author inserted.

I just thought that this was an interesting newish way to do psyops, and if not taken to overexaggeration and extremes, can be an effective tactic.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #973 on: March 17, 2022, 10:07:30 AM »
People are stupid. Look how much traction a retarded SNL skit got. I know a number of people that still get all butt hurt if you tell them it was Tina Fey portraying Sarah Palin in a SNL skit that said " I can see Russia from my house" and not actually Sarah Palin.

I'm surprised we aren't seeing more deepfake propaganda in the media, hell, maybe we are and don't know it.
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HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #974 on: March 17, 2022, 11:09:00 AM »
And here I thought the roots of the Russian invasion went back to Joe Biden's bragging about threatening to withhold aid money to get a Ukrainian prosecutor fired so he couldn't investigate the shady Ukrainian company funneling bribe money a high salary to his son Hunter.
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