Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 131033 times)

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #975 on: March 17, 2022, 01:23:43 PM »
Quote
'Imposter claiming to be Ukraine PM tried to talk to UK minister'

UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace says an "imposter" claiming to be Ukraine's Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal tried to contact him.

"He posed several misleading questions and after becoming suspicious I terminated the call," Wallace wrote on Twitter, without providing further details.

In a follow-up tweet, he described the incident as "desperate".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60774819
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #976 on: March 17, 2022, 03:22:58 PM »
Everyone seems to be going gaga over this video by Arnold Schwarzenegger. I might be in the minority, but it really sounds like a propaganda piece to me. Especially because Arnold is the "screw your freedom" and "06JAN terrorists" guy.

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/17/must-watch-arnold-schwarzenegger-shares-an-important-and-powerful-message-with-the-russian-people-video/

While I support Ukraine defending themselves, the anti-Russian stuff that has been overwhelmingly blanketing the airwaves and social media has really made me stop and ponder. It seems to be much worse than the propaganda from the Russian side, and really has me thinking, "wait a minute here..."

Is anyone else feeling like some of this "death to Russia" cheerleading is kinda over the top and maybe makes us bad guys as well?
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Nick1911

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #977 on: March 17, 2022, 04:18:07 PM »
Everyone seems to be going gaga over this video by Arnold Schwarzenegger. I might be in the minority, but it really sounds like a propaganda piece to me. Especially because Arnold is the "screw your freedom" and "06JAN terrorists" guy.

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/17/must-watch-arnold-schwarzenegger-shares-an-important-and-powerful-message-with-the-russian-people-video/

While I support Ukraine defending themselves, the anti-Russian stuff that has been overwhelmingly blanketing the airwaves and social media has really made me stop and ponder. It seems to be much worse than the propaganda from the Russian side, and really has me thinking, "wait a minute here..."

Is anyone else feeling like some of this "death to Russia" cheerleading is kinda over the top and maybe makes us bad guys as well?

Yea, I've been getting that too.  Also, while I don't fully agree with the perspective, some of Ron's points are valid and have lead me to be a little more centrist on the issue than I started out being.

It's upside down world.  The left wants a war, and the right is trying to blame america for Russia actions.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #978 on: March 17, 2022, 04:27:41 PM »
Time for a drink

Jen Psaki says it’s in our nat’l security interest to have Putin’s Russia broker nuke deal with Iran on US behalf
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/03/17/jen-psaki-says-its-in-our-natl-security-interest-to-have-putins-russia-broker-nuke-deal-with-iran-on-us-behalf/
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #979 on: March 17, 2022, 04:50:49 PM »
Yea, I've been getting that too.  Also, while I don't fully agree with the perspective, some of Ron's points are valid and have lead me to be a little more centrist on the issue than I started out being.

It's upside down world.  The left wants a war, and the right is trying to blame america for Russia actions.

I was almost going to start a separate poll, because I'm kinda feeling like I'm on a parallel Earth right now. I'm looking around as a "republitarian" and am feeling like the far left whackos I otherwise make fun of.

I was on a pigeon shoot with a couple of older guys yesterday, who both consider themselves VERY conservative. Both NRA life members, both Vietnam combat vets. One of them was a big Trump supporter up until 06JAN - I mean the kind that had a Trump flag under his American flag for four years. Now he hates Trump and both guys were talking about putting all the 06JAN people in front of a firing squad. They were also super pissed that we're not sending F-22s and A-10s to Ukraine, flown by our guys, to wipe out the Russians.

So it's not just the usual "anti-war" left that is war crazy right now, but much of the right. I'm not sure where I am on the APS sliding scale, but in meatspace around these parts anyway, I'm kinda feeling like people (both right and left) think I'm a commie pinko sympathizer or something, and no one is questioning what I consider scary propaganda from our side. Or the non-Russian side, or whatever alternate Earth side that I'm apparently on. I feel like it's a very minority position right now though, and that I might get rocks thrown at me if I don't hurry up and put Ukrainian flag stickers on everything I own.

I should point out that the two guys mentioned above only get their news from the "local" papers and ABC, NBC, and CBS. Of course even alternate "conservative" sites like Twitchy seem to be pushing for war. There are very few people in the media stepping back to consider potential WW3, nuclear war, etc.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #980 on: March 17, 2022, 05:22:43 PM »
Yea, I've been getting that too.  Also, while I don't fully agree with the perspective, some of Ron's points are valid and have lead me to be a little more centrist on the issue than I started out being.

It's upside down world.  The left wants a war, and the right is trying to blame america for Russia actions.

While I think it (NATO membership) may be part of the reason I just don't think it is THE reason. I think Putin would done it anyway.

Now did Ukraine do something to inflame this, probably. But I still pin 80-90% of this on Putin.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2022, 05:36:49 PM by WLJ »
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #981 on: March 17, 2022, 06:06:14 PM »
No real movement showing up on the maps but lots and lots of shelling symbols
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Lennyjoe

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #982 on: March 17, 2022, 07:32:36 PM »
Ben, I think I’m on the same plane as you.  Question is, how far will Putin go?  Better yet, how far will his Generals go?  Captured Russian soldiers are saying it’s better to die or surrender in Ukraine than retreating back to Russia only to get shot.

Will Putin say screw everyone and hit the nuke button if his rule is at an end?  Will he just fold and go away?  What is America willing to sacrifice by getting involved in the shooting war?  We’re pushing the limit with the weapons we’re providing Ukraine now and will Putin use that to escalate?

Lastly, uncle Joe has a telecom with China in the morning.  If China says screw Russia, do we jump in feet first into the shooting war? 

So many unknowns right now.  I’m finding myself looking at the worst case and making additional preparations (just in case) should WWIII start.  Not going full prepper but coordinating bug out plans with family.

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #983 on: March 17, 2022, 08:00:50 PM »
While I think it (NATO membership) may be part of the reason I just don't think it is THE reason. I think Putin would done it anyway.

Now did Ukraine do something to inflame this, probably. But I still pin 80-90% of this on Putin.
I don't want to take any blame off Putin either.  I don't think he is a good guy.  I am just not sure the Ukrainian govt are great people either.  The stuff about the "biolabs" among other things makes me wonder if the US or other international interests were playing games in the Ukraine which helped push Putin into his actions. 

All that really means is both sides are probably the bad guys and lot of people are caught in the middle. 

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #984 on: March 17, 2022, 08:04:49 PM »
Quote
Putin's conditions for ending the war
According to the newspaper ABC, Putin's conditions for peace are as follows:

1. Ukraine doesn't enter NATO and maintains a position of neutrality

2. Crimea is recognised as a territory of Russia

3. The independence is granted to the people's republics of Donetsk and Lugansk

4. Ukraine demilitarises and surrenders any weapons which constitute a threat to Russia

5. Ukraine goes through a process of denazification, which would essentially constitute a change of government based on Putin's previous words about the Ukrainian leadership.

6. Russian becomes the second official language of Ukraine and any laws which prohibit its use are repealed.
https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2022/03/16/6231e91022601ddc368b4593.html

4 open to interpretation and does that include any weapon the west has given Ukraine?
5 Who gets to choose what replaces it?
6 Seems an odd demand to make of another country to me
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MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #985 on: March 17, 2022, 08:08:56 PM »
I was almost going to start a separate poll, because I'm kinda feeling like I'm on a parallel Earth right now. I'm looking around as a "republitarian" and am feeling like the far left whackos I otherwise make fun of.

I was on a pigeon shoot with a couple of older guys yesterday, who both consider themselves VERY conservative. Both NRA life members, both Vietnam combat vets. One of them was a big Trump supporter up until 06JAN - I mean the kind that had a Trump flag under his American flag for four years. Now he hates Trump and both guys were talking about putting all the 06JAN people in front of a firing squad. They were also super pissed that we're not sending F-22s and A-10s to Ukraine, flown by our guys, to wipe out the Russians.

So it's not just the usual "anti-war" left that is war crazy right now, but much of the right. I'm not sure where I am on the APS sliding scale, but in meatspace around these parts anyway, I'm kinda feeling like people (both right and left) think I'm a commie pinko sympathizer or something, and no one is questioning what I consider scary propaganda from our side. Or the non-Russian side, or whatever alternate Earth side that I'm apparently on. I feel like it's a very minority position right now though, and that I might get rocks thrown at me if I don't hurry up and put Ukrainian flag stickers on everything I own.

I should point out that the two guys mentioned above only get their news from the "local" papers and ABC, NBC, and CBS. Of course even alternate "conservative" sites like Twitchy seem to be pushing for war. There are very few people in the media stepping back to consider potential WW3, nuclear war, etc.
I stopped watching the TV news completely.  I am happy not to hear all the propaganda.  IMO, there are lot of better sources of information on the internet to find.  Yes, they are all biased so pick 2 or 3 unrelated sources instead of just one. 

I don't consider myself anti war.  I am just very cautious.  Seeing that leaders I thought were decent (at the time) got us into 20 year occupations over the last couple decades, I think it is wise to have a healthy bit of distrust for the war hawks on both sides. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

French G.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #986 on: March 17, 2022, 08:45:41 PM »
The war is how the left stays in power and simultaneously purges the trumpers.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Lennyjoe

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #987 on: March 17, 2022, 08:47:52 PM »
I stopped watching the TV news completely.  I am happy not to hear all the propaganda.

I have to admit, CNN sucks when they talk politics but they have pretty decent war coverage…

WLJ

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fifth_column

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #989 on: March 18, 2022, 10:26:08 AM »
I was almost going to start a separate poll, because I'm kinda feeling like I'm on a parallel Earth right now. I'm looking around as a "republitarian" and am feeling like the far left whackos I otherwise make fun of.

I was on a pigeon shoot with a couple of older guys yesterday, who both consider themselves VERY conservative. Both NRA life members, both Vietnam combat vets. One of them was a big Trump supporter up until 06JAN - I mean the kind that had a Trump flag under his American flag for four years. Now he hates Trump and both guys were talking about putting all the 06JAN people in front of a firing squad. They were also super pissed that we're not sending F-22s and A-10s to Ukraine, flown by our guys, to wipe out the Russians.

So it's not just the usual "anti-war" left that is war crazy right now, but much of the right. I'm not sure where I am on the APS sliding scale, but in meatspace around these parts anyway, I'm kinda feeling like people (both right and left) think I'm a commie pinko sympathizer or something, and no one is questioning what I consider scary propaganda from our side. Or the non-Russian side, or whatever alternate Earth side that I'm apparently on. I feel like it's a very minority position right now though, and that I might get rocks thrown at me if I don't hurry up and put Ukrainian flag stickers on everything I own.

I should point out that the two guys mentioned above only get their news from the "local" papers and ABC, NBC, and CBS. Of course even alternate "conservative" sites like Twitchy seem to be pushing for war. There are very few people in the media stepping back to consider potential WW3, nuclear war, etc.

I think the American propaganda machine is much more effective than anything the Russians ever had in place. People that think they're free seem to be willing to adopt whatever mindset they're told to adopt, even if today's mindset is opposite of yesterday's. A person that is 100% certain he "thinks for himself" will never question if his thoughts are being influenced by someone else. Essentially, self-confidence makes one vulnerable to manipulation. Now that's irony.

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. ― Frederick Douglass

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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #990 on: March 18, 2022, 10:48:12 AM »
... says the user with the name fifth_column ... now I don't know what to believe!

fifth_column

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #991 on: March 18, 2022, 11:04:05 AM »
... says the user with the name fifth_column ... now I don't know what to believe!

That's good. A little self-doubt can be extremely healthy . . . . .

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. ― Frederick Douglass

No American citizen should be willing to accept a government that uses its power against its own people.  -  Catherine Engelbrecht

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #992 on: March 18, 2022, 11:09:51 AM »
That's good. A little self-doubt can be extremely healthy . . . . .
If a fifth columnist wants me to doubt myself, then I shouldn't doubt myself, right? 

WLJ

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AJ Dual

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #994 on: March 18, 2022, 11:18:15 AM »
Quote
He said Putin and his closest political allies were "nervous" about the extent of the "devastating" economic sanctions imposed by the West, suggesting the Russian leader "didn't expect the sanctions would be so harsh".

I think this is very true. Russia got a pretty weak slap on the wrist for taking Crimea and the other separatist regions in Eastern Ukraine. And that led them to expect more of the same.

Now the wheat harvest is failing, and the war in Ukraine will most likely screw theirs up too, and a bunch of the Middle East and China relies on that food.

Putin can't admit failure or retreat, so I expect Russia to continue, but there's a good chance they'll suffer complete logistical collapse within a month or so.

I promise not to duck.

fifth_column

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #995 on: March 18, 2022, 11:42:27 AM »
If a fifth columnist wants me to doubt myself, then I shouldn't doubt myself, right?

Depends on your goal. Finding the truth is reductive; eliminating the false leaves only the true.
Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. ― Frederick Douglass

No American citizen should be willing to accept a government that uses its power against its own people.  -  Catherine Engelbrecht

WLJ

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Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #997 on: March 18, 2022, 01:57:24 PM »
I hope I am wrong, but I think a lot of Ukrainians will starve to death (again) if this war isn't ended soon.

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #998 on: March 18, 2022, 03:23:37 PM »
I hope I am wrong, but I think a lot of Ukrainians will starve to death (again) if this war isn't ended soon.
Yeah.  Especially in Russian controlled regions.  A country having trouble supplying its own military is going to have a hard time feeding civilians in conquered territory.

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #999 on: March 18, 2022, 03:47:34 PM »
Yeah.  Especially in Russian controlled regions.  A country having trouble supplying its own military is going to have a hard time feeding civilians in conquered territory.
Cue PRAVDA stories about Nazi cannibal Ukrainians.
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