Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 131073 times)

charby

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1150 on: March 29, 2022, 10:49:29 AM »
When I first "thought" that Putin (and his merry band of kool-aid drinkers) were committing war crimes against the Ukrainian people, I looked up where the Interntional Court in The Hague were at in their missions. Seeing that past things that Putin did was still in going to investigation mode and not stared due to lack of funding, I pretty much lost hope in the International Community punishing Putin, et. al. when this is all over.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2022, 11:53:19 AM by charby »
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1151 on: March 29, 2022, 10:51:38 AM »
Couple of points:

1. Yes, folks act badly in every war.  US soldiers even act badly in war.  That should not be tolerated.

2. Unlike many BS ROE restrictions and touchy feely crap, rules on the treatment of POW's have a very real effect on the war.  Torturing and maiming POW's is how you end up with armies not surrendering even when they have lost, and really brutal outcomes.  There are solid reasons to treat your prisoners correctly, even if your opponent is not.

3. It's becoming pretty clear that NATO (us) is going to get sucked into this bullshit conflict sooner or later.  I would prefer not to have to shoot an "ally" in the face because they have made a habit of committing war crimes.

4. Again, we don't have to pick a side here. Bad and Not-as-Bad are fighting, due to bad government.  That's no reason to be "OK" with 18 year old draftees being kneecapped because they avoided being shot by their Замполит. *


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All good points. Though they are dying off, there is an older generation of Americans who were able to lay aside their differences with the krauts after WW2, but will never forgive the japs.

Certainly the Gestapo and SS committed atrocities to allied prisoners, but I think those were the exception, not the rule. The krauts weren't eating the livers of their prisoners.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1152 on: March 29, 2022, 11:17:00 AM »
dogmush is right.

I saw the video.  It is vile.  Assuming it is real (and it looked very real) I doubt any of the wounded survived the event.

In addition to being evil, it is mind numbingly stupid.  Ukraine is dependent of military aid to continue fighting.  Commiting war crimes endangers their aid.  Russia is holding thousands of Ukrainian evacuees.  This puts them all in even worse danger than they were before.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1153 on: March 29, 2022, 11:52:45 AM »
The krauts weren't eating the livers of their prisoners.

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1154 on: March 29, 2022, 12:03:00 PM »
I can't say that I blame the Ukrainians for maiming captured Russian soldiers.

Were the same to happen in the US (queue Red Dawn), I rather doubt US forces, fighting a defensive war on our home turf, would give a sh!t about POW rules.

I acknowledge the difference between uniformed regular forces fighting an urban guerrilla insurgency versus irregular civilians, but I also suspect that at this point the Ukraine resistance is heavily bolstered by irregular forces who are not technically protected by Hague Conventions anyways.  Once they start fighting, they're not protected by them, so treatment of POW's doesn't matter, and they probably know fellow countrymen and women who have been kidnapped from Ukraine and taken into Russia (since Russia has been pulling that sh!t in the last week or two).  Kill them, hurt them, maim them, demoralize them, shame them, terrorize them.  Do whatever it takes to make them fear coming to your country more than the repercussions of disobedience back at home.
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Jim147

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1155 on: March 29, 2022, 12:13:36 PM »
Well Putin did bring in the Chechens so I'm sure they have seen some unimaginable things done to their own people.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1156 on: March 29, 2022, 12:44:55 PM »
Detailed look into the video

Some are claiming the video is staged. I don't put it pass either side.
Ukraine said they will be investigating but I'm sure everyone involved, all sides, will believe what they want to believe.

Does video show Russian prisoners being shot?
https://www.bbc.com/news/60907259
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Brad Johnson

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1157 on: March 29, 2022, 12:59:46 PM »
Saw a video couple days ago of a treaded vehicle turning a corner on a country road and summarily smoking a family of three in a small sedan doing nothing more aggressive than approaching the same intersection. That's guaranteed to ratchet down the sympathies a bit. Right or not, proper or not, fair or not, Russian soldiers going home with a hole in their leg should be happy that's all they experienced.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1158 on: March 29, 2022, 01:05:43 PM »
Saw a video couple days ago of a treaded vehicle turning a corner on a country road and summarily smoking a family of three in a small sedan doing nothing more aggressive than approaching the same intersection. That's guaranteed to ratchet down the sympathies a bit. Right or not, proper or not, fair or not, Russian soldiers going home with a hole in their leg should be happy that's all they experienced.

Brad

Been a few like that.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1159 on: March 29, 2022, 01:06:27 PM »
Well Putin did bring in the Chechens so I'm sure they have seen some unimaginable things done to their own people.

And Syrians
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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1160 on: March 29, 2022, 01:59:45 PM »
And he's bringing in Wagner Group. Let's set people on fire and behead them for something to laugh about.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

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Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1161 on: March 29, 2022, 02:05:19 PM »
Right or not, proper or not, fair or not, Russian soldiers going home with a hole in their leg should be happy that's all they experienced.

Brad

I don't think any of the Russian POWs in that video are going to make it home.  At least one was clearly dying and the captors were making comments about killing them.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1162 on: March 29, 2022, 04:22:12 PM »
"Hey, Dmitri, what say we torture these Russkie prisoners, film it, and post it on the internet!"

"Great idea, Vassily - we'll get a lot of views and drum up a lot of support for our beloved Ukraine!"

Mind numbingly stupid (as Pb pointed out) doesn't begin to describe it - if it's real.
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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1163 on: March 29, 2022, 06:55:58 PM »
Easy enough for Russians to stage it and put it out as propaganda against Ukraine.
Hell, it could be deep fake.  Either is nearly as possible as actual Ukrainians doing it.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1164 on: March 29, 2022, 07:22:43 PM »
Just popped up on YT

Explosion at RUSSIAN VILLAGE of Oktyabrsky (near Belgorod city), 12 kilometers from Ukraine border.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee6pVqboaNY
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WLJ

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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1166 on: March 29, 2022, 07:40:16 PM »
Quote
Nolan Peterson
@nolanwpeterson
I can confirm that Alpha 1, a Ukrainian Foreign Legion team of multinational special operations soldiers, including American volunteers, took part in the liberation of Irpin.
https://twitter.com/nolanwpeterson/status/1508770769211301890
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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1167 on: March 29, 2022, 08:10:36 PM »
Couple of points:

1. Yes, folks act badly in every war.  US soldiers even act badly in war.  That should not be tolerated.

2. Unlike many BS ROE restrictions and touchy feely crap, rules on the treatment of POW's have a very real effect on the war.  Torturing and maiming POW's is how you end up with armies not surrendering even when they have lost, and really brutal outcomes.  There are solid reasons to treat your prisoners correctly, even if your opponent is not.

3. It's becoming pretty clear that NATO (us) is going to get sucked into this bullshit conflict sooner or later.  I would prefer not to have to shoot an "ally" in the face because they have made a habit of committing war crimes.

4. Again, we don't have to pick a side here. Bad and Not-as-Bad are fighting, due to bad government.  That's no reason to be "OK" with 18 year old draftees being kneecapped because they avoided being shot by their Замполит. *


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Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1168 on: March 29, 2022, 08:19:59 PM »
"Hey, Dmitri, what say we torture these Russkie prisoners, film it, and post it on the internet!"

"Great idea, Vassily - we'll get a lot of views and drum up a lot of support for our beloved Ukraine!"

Mind numbingly stupid (as Pb pointed out) doesn't begin to describe it - if it's real.

Remember the US servicemen and women who tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison took photographs.  Torturers do film themselves.  The torture film discussed here may have been made for the amusement of the men doing the crimes.... they probably never intended it to go on the internet. 

You are right, it could be faked.  I kind of doubt it.

I've also seen a few videos of Ukrainian servicemen using the phones of dead Russians to call their loved ones to torment them.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1169 on: March 30, 2022, 09:42:26 AM »
Quote
Fighting for Russia will feed my family - Syrian soldier

Syrian fighters are being offer £5,000 a month to fight on the front line for Russia in the war against Ukraine, the BBC has learned.

One Syrian soldier who’s volunteered to fight said he believed Russia was carrying out a massacre in Ukraine, but it was also helping poor Syrians who couldn’t afford to eat.

He said he'd volunteered because of the money on offer. His family doesn’t want him to go, but he was told that they would be paid £37,000 if he was killed.

He said he knew of at least 200 people who had volunteered.

The Ukrainian government and a leading Syrian NGO say 14 recruitment centres have been set up across Syria.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60923158/page/3
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Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1170 on: March 30, 2022, 10:43:55 AM »
If a Syrian believes Russia will pay his family £37,000 if he dies, he is a fool.  Russia doesn't care about its own soliders, why would they care about Syrians?

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1171 on: March 30, 2022, 10:52:18 AM »

I've also seen a few videos of Ukrainian servicemen using the phones of dead Russians to call their loved ones to torment them.

I wouldn't think servicemen would be allowed to carry their cell phones with them into combat and unlocked at that.
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WLJ

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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1173 on: March 30, 2022, 12:00:19 PM »
I wouldn't think servicemen would be allowed to carry their cell phones with them into combat and unlocked at that.

You'd be mistaken.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1174 on: March 30, 2022, 12:03:45 PM »
You'd be mistaken.

Seems like a huge security risk to me.
If they're getting into them and making phone calls that would imply they're unlocked.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 12:26:16 PM by WLJ »
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