Author Topic: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed  (Read 3999 times)

Pb

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #100 on: March 06, 2023, 09:27:32 AM »
I bet you'd change your mind if you were the innocent person on the gallows, and the lever was about to be pulled.

I think this is a good argument, though not sufficient in my opinion.

There are a lot of things society does that are important, even though there is a risk of innocent people dying as a result.

Most obviously, we allow police to carry guns, even though they may (and do) shoot innocent people by accident sometimes.  I believe this is an acceptable risk because of the benefits of allowing police use firearms to defend themselves and others outweighs the risks.  The same can be said about allowing regular people to carry guns.  There are risks that innocent people will be shot by mistake.  This does happen sometimes... but it does prove that firearms carriage should be banned.



If a policeman or CCWer were to shoot me by accident, might I feel that all police/CCWers should be disarmed? Maybe... but that would not demonstrate that this position would be correct, would it?  When deciding things like this, we need to look at both the benefits as well as the costs. 

I believe the same about capital punishment.  Eliminating predators and deterring crime is worth the small risk of fatal mistakes.

You may disagree, and that is ok.

RocketMan

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #101 on: March 06, 2023, 10:24:48 AM »
I think this is a good argument, though not sufficient in my opinion.

There are a lot of things society does that are important, even though there is a risk of innocent people dying as a result.

Most obviously, we allow police to carry guns, even though they may (and do) shoot innocent people by accident sometimes.  I believe this is an acceptable risk because of the benefits of allowing police use firearms to defend themselves and others outweighs the risks.  The same can be said about allowing regular people to carry guns.  There are risks that innocent people will be shot by mistake.  This does happen sometimes... but it does prove that firearms carriage should be banned.



If a policeman or CCWer were to shoot me by accident, might I feel that all police/CCWers should be disarmed? Maybe... but that would not demonstrate that this position would be correct, would it?  When deciding things like this, we need to look at both the benefits as well as the costs. 

I believe the same about capital punishment.  Eliminating predators and deterring crime is worth the small risk of fatal mistakes.

You may disagree, and that is ok.

I do disagree because all of the examples you listed do not really compare to capital punishment.  They are inherently different in that they are instantaneous, not the result of drawn out, deliberate decision making in the legal system.
I used to be all for capital punishment, with a very strong "hang 'em high" attitude.  But that changed once I realized just how often the judicial system screws up and wrongly convicts innocent people.  I just don't want extremely fallible government agencies making capital punishment decisions because I am convinced they are getting it wrong too often.  I am simply not willing to pay the price of any wrongful executions.
Life without parole in the deepest, darkest cell there is works just fine.  In my opinion, that is a fate worse than death.  And it is reversible if it is later found the person was wrongfully convicted,
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Ben

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #102 on: March 06, 2023, 10:41:49 AM »
I am in the same camp as Rocketman. Too many "oops" exonerations. I am still fully in favor of the death penalty for absolutely, 100% provable murders, and examples of such are listed above by others.

Otherwise, there might be better search wording to use, but here's some links on exonerations:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=number+of+people+on+death+row+vs+dna+exoneration&atb=v314-1&ia=web

It appears there is one exoneration for every eight people executed. I probably wouldn't get in my car and go on a public road if I had a 1 in 8 chance of being killed. The "mistakes rarely happen and are worth it to society" argument would be more open to debate if it were 1 in 10,000. I'd feel more comfortable with 1 in 100,000.
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cordex

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #103 on: March 06, 2023, 10:43:23 AM »
Life without parole in the deepest, darkest cell there is works just fine.  In my opinion, that is a fate worse than death.  And it is reversible if it is later found the person was wrongfully convicted,
I'm not sure that decades in prison is ever "reversible".

Pb

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #104 on: March 06, 2023, 10:55:25 AM »
I do disagree because all of the examples you listed do not really compare to capital punishment.  They are inherently different in that they are instantaneous, not the result of drawn out, deliberate decision making in the legal system.

Because the legal system is so long and drawn out, it is less likely that fatal mistakes will be made.

Capital punishment compares favorably to allowing police to carry guns in this instance.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #105 on: March 06, 2023, 11:03:21 AM »
Quote
I am in the same camp as Rocketman. Too many "oops" exonerations. I am still fully in favor of the death penalty for absolutely, 100% provable murders, and examples of such are listed above by others.

Not to mention the deliberate malfeasance of persecutorial and judicial misconduct. Because "they knew" they had the right guy.
We routinely see examples of the actors for the state deliberately withholding exculpatory evidence in non-capitol cases I have zero doubt those same people would do the same thing in a death penalty case.

I'm a proponent of the death penalty but only in cases where there is no possible doubt of the guilt of the offender as I mentioned earlier.

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RocketMan

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #106 on: March 06, 2023, 03:37:45 PM »
Because the legal system is so long and drawn out, it is less likely that fatal mistakes will be made.

I have no idea where you got that notion.  Does not compute.

Capital punishment compares favorably to allowing police to carry guns in this instance.

Non-sequitur.  There is no logical comparison between the two.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

RocketMan

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #107 on: March 06, 2023, 03:40:06 PM »
I'm not sure that decades in prison is ever "reversible".

Reversible in the sense that death is not.  An innocent person released from decades in prison at least has some minimal chance of restoring some semblance of normalcy to their life.  An executed person is SOL if they were later found to have been innocent.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

cordex

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #108 on: March 06, 2023, 04:22:04 PM »
Reversible in the sense that death is not.  An innocent person released from decades in prison at least has some minimal chance of restoring some semblance of normalcy to their life.  An executed person is SOL if they were later found to have been innocent.
Of course I understand what you meant, but you also described lifetime imprisonment as a fate worse than death.  I understand your argument is that it is a better choice for someone who has been wrongly convicted because they might eventually be released, but there are going to be innocent people who are going to suffer that fate worse than death until they die.  That it is theoretically reversible might not be much comfort to them.  For that matter, way, way more people are murdered each year in prison than are executed.

Of course, there's also the complexity that some "innocent" people in prison are innocent only of the crime they were convicted of and releasing them in the name of justice might actually be serving injustice.  If we're talking edge cases, that's got to be considered.

Again, I get the sentiment, but it isn't as straightforward as "prison is reversible".

Edit: hard to be innocent of a crime you committed ... changed that to "of the crime they were convicted of"
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 04:36:04 PM by cordex »

JN01

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #109 on: March 06, 2023, 04:22:44 PM »
Life without parole in the deepest, darkest cell there is works just fine.  In my opinion, that is a fate worse than death.

Nope, can't happen, inmates have rights.  Solitary confinement for anything other than brief time periods is considered torture.  They have to be given opportunities for recreation, education, treatment programs, visitation, etc, etc.  Not an existence I would choose, but it's far from the "hard time" most would imagine.

Lifers have a chance for parole more often than not.  Sometimes they are released early or escape and wreak havoc on society once again.  Those that are never getting released and can't face a death penalty have no disincentive against murdering other inmates or correctional staff.

I don't have all the answers, but a few criminals are so evil that the only way to effectively incapacitate them is to put them down. 

Ben

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #110 on: March 06, 2023, 04:27:44 PM »
I don't have all the answers, but a few criminals are so evil that the only way to effectively incapacitate them is to put them down.

This is also a consideration. Also what I think Cordex was alluding to regarding very bad people who have been and will continue to be criminals, getting out on a technicality. I'll admit that for my side of the argument, we're likely looking at the person with no prior criminal history getting falsely popped on a murder charge as our poster child. That's not always the case with exoneration. Sometimes it can be the very bad person that just happened not to do "X" crime.

As you say, there are no easy answers.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Pb

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #111 on: March 07, 2023, 11:49:51 AM »
I have no idea where you got that notion.  Does not compute.

Non-sequitur.  There is no logical comparison between the two.

OK- what I was trying to say is that a long drawn out process such as a trial, with lawyers on both sides, forensic evidence and so on is less likely to make a mistake than a policeman with a drawn gun trying to decide in an object in someone's hand is a cell phone or a gun in a split second.

Longer periods of time to make life-or-death decisions are less likely to create errors than shorter periods of time.

Police kill folks by mistake; one of the reasons they do so is that they have to make very rapid decisions.  Is he going to drop the gun or point it at me?  Is that gun or a wallet he is reaching for?  Is he trying to grab my gun or just rolling around? 

Cops may only have a few seconds to decide.

Contrast this to hearing evidence presented by both sides over the course of weeks.

sumpnz

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #112 on: March 07, 2023, 12:49:41 PM »
OK- what I was trying to say is that a long drawn out process such as a trial, with lawyers on both sides, forensic evidence and so on is less likely to make a mistake than a policeman with a drawn gun trying to decide in an object in someone's hand is a cell phone or a gun in a split second.

Longer periods of time to make life-or-death decisions are less likely to create errors than shorter periods of time.

Police kill folks by mistake; one of the reasons they do so is that they have to make very rapid decisions.  Is he going to drop the gun or point it at me?  Is that gun or a wallet he is reaching for?  Is he trying to grab my gun or just rolling around? 

Cops may only have a few seconds to decide.

Contrast this to hearing evidence presented by both sides over the course of weeks.

Probably most capital cases aren’t drawn out over weeks.  The high profile cases are, but run of the mill murder trials, even where death is possible, take maybe a couple days.  And the majority of defendants have to make do with public defenders that are employed by the same government as the prosecution.  Still I suppose in your example better than the split second decisions of cops, but hardly the drawn out affair you seem to think is normal in the courts.

cordex

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #113 on: March 07, 2023, 03:29:06 PM »
Probably most capital cases aren’t drawn out over weeks.  The high profile cases are, but run of the mill murder trials, even where death is possible, take maybe a couple days.  And the majority of defendants have to make do with public defenders that are employed by the same government as the prosecution.  Still I suppose in your example better than the split second decisions of cops, but hardly the drawn out affair you seem to think is normal in the courts.
To be fair, though, a death row case isn't usually a single case.  It takes an average of something like 15 years to go through all the appeals and finally carry out the execution.  Statistically, a death row inmate is twice as likely to die waiting to be executed than to be executed.

BobR

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #114 on: March 07, 2023, 04:07:24 PM »
To be fair, though, a death row case isn't usually a single case.  It takes an average of something like 15 years to go through all the appeals and finally carry out the execution.  Statistically, a death row inmate is twice as likely to die waiting to be executed than to be executed.

and that is what makes putting a person on death row so much more expensive to the state than just locking them up forever.

bob

Perd Hapley

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #115 on: March 07, 2023, 05:17:29 PM »
This guy was on something when he passed out, and smeared a young woman's body across the front of a building, killing her. Gets 2 years for each of his 4 crimes - but concurrent, so as not to be too hard on the little angel.

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime/urgent-care-ballwin-fatal-crash-guilty-plea-sentence/63-9c3aa1d6-774a-48c7-a6c4-a5e368016662

I'm not totally committed to this, but I could see an argument for making all drugs entirely legal - but if you do stuff like this, you get death.
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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #116 on: March 07, 2023, 05:30:55 PM »
I am in the same camp as Rocketman. Too many "oops" exonerations. I am still fully in favor of the death penalty for absolutely, 100% provable murders, and examples of such are listed above by others.

Otherwise, there might be better search wording to use, but here's some links on exonerations:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=number+of+people+on+death+row+vs+dna+exoneration&atb=v314-1&ia=web

It appears there is one exoneration for every eight people executed. I probably wouldn't get in my car and go on a public road if I had a 1 in 8 chance of being killed. The "mistakes rarely happen and are worth it to society" argument would be more open to debate if it were 1 in 10,000. I'd feel more comfortable with 1 in 100,000.

I like that idea, but as a realist, I know that sooner or later we'll run into cases where  that "100%" becomes a matter of opinion or prosecutorial or media aggression and we'll be right back where we started from.  Yes, I know the term "caught red-handed," as in "with bloody hands," but the general "100%" principle is flawed  simply because society is flawed.

As far as "punishment" is concerend, I'm well aware there are unprincipled uncaring people among us who will look at their lifetime incarceration simply as an "inconvenience," without any inherent remorse for their actual acts.  'Tis well these are removed from society anyhow.

(Still some typos,l I am sure, but I am now done editing. =D )

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MechAg94

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #117 on: March 07, 2023, 05:51:15 PM »
This guy was on something when he passed out, and smeared a young woman's body across the front of a building, killing her. Gets 2 years for each of his 4 crimes - but concurrent, so as not to be too hard on the little angel.

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime/urgent-care-ballwin-fatal-crash-guilty-plea-sentence/63-9c3aa1d6-774a-48c7-a6c4-a5e368016662

I'm not totally committed to this, but I could see an argument for making all drugs entirely legal - but if you do stuff like this, you get death.
I tend to lean that way as well.  If you screw up and actually hurt or affect someone else, then the penalties get severe real quick.
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230RN

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #118 on: March 08, 2023, 02:23:45 PM »
I tend to lean that way as well.  If you screw up and actually hurt or affect someone else, then the penalties get severe real quick.

Agreed in principle.  Practically, however, one must question in advance "How severe is 'severe?' "

Aaaand, as you can see, we're back to the original issue.

Terry, 230RN

dogmush

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #119 on: March 08, 2023, 04:48:40 PM »
It's also worth noting in these discussions, as Terry did, that "100% obviously guilty" isn't as clear cut as you might think.

For example:  I can easily find people that are 100% sure Kyle Rittenhouse murdered two people on camera.  Without even using the tapes the state doctored for the trial.  Lots of folks would happily let the government kill that innocent kid.

How many other 100% guilty folks didn't have the legal team, or exonerating videos, that Mr. Rittenhouse was lucky enough to have when the Lidless Eye of the State turns it's terrible gaze on them?

sumpnz

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Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
« Reply #120 on: March 08, 2023, 05:22:36 PM »
It's also worth noting in these discussions, as Terry did, that "100% obviously guilty" isn't as clear cut as you might think.

For example:  I can easily find people that are 100% sure Kyle Rittenhouse murdered two people on camera.  Without even using the tapes the state doctored for the trial.  Lots of folks would happily let the government kill that innocent kid.

How many other 100% guilty folks didn't have the legal team, or exonerating videos, that Mr. Rittenhouse was lucky enough to have when the Lidless Eye of the State turns it's terrible gaze on them?
Rittenhouse was super lucky to have all that video, not just of the shootings but of all the context.  Zimmerman wished there was such video of his confrontation with St Trayvon.  That all forensic evidence backed up his story was what got him acquitted.

Idiots will believe whatever they are told to believe.  As much as it suck$, at least via the adversarial nature of a trial, those 2 people were able to prove their innocence.  Far beyond just introducing “reasonable doubt”, which should have been enough.  At least in Rittenhouse’s case it definitely shouldn’t have ever gone to trial.

Even where there is video footage of someone shooting people to death context still matters.