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Author Topic: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen  (Read 956 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« on: July 08, 2022, 06:48:00 PM »

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/07/motion-to-dismiss-atf-firearms-case-claiming-nfa-unconstitutional/

I don't think any of us would disagree with the 9 page text of the motion to dismiss.

What's horrific is that Obamacare was essentially supported by the precedent of the NFA, the power of prohibition through taxation.  And that Obamacare could serve as a sort of Mobius-strip self referential support to the NFA to the wrong twisted minds.

I'm going to embed a picture of the Auto Key Card so it gets drawn on all your screens and saved to all your disk caches, and the various internet caches between us all, and to APS's server, so we're all in constructive possession.

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Pb

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2022, 07:58:46 PM »

He is going to lose, unfortunately.  No judge will say we have a right to a machine gun.

Jim147

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2022, 08:30:29 PM »

He is going to lose, unfortunately.  No judge will say we have a right to a machine gun.

If they do that go back to Miller and say OK, we can have short barrel shotguns right?
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

230RN

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2022, 12:26:38 AM »

Refresh my memory...

Didn't SCOTUS not make a decision on Miller, but merely sent it back to the lower Court for review after there were no oral arguments from the plaintiff?

And the lower Court never did anything on it?

And that's how we got stuck with it?

sumpnz

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2022, 12:39:46 AM »

Refresh my memory...

Didn't SCOTUS not make a decision on Miller, but merely sent it back to the lower Court for review after there were no oral arguments from the plaintiff?

And the lower Court never did anything on it?

And that's how we got stuck with it?

Iirc they ruled in favor of the government because Miller died before the hearing and no lawyers presented his case.

MechAg94

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2022, 12:49:39 AM »

Iirc they ruled in favor of the government because Miller died before the hearing and no lawyers presented his case.
I seen people say Miller's lawyer wasn't allowed to present a case but wanted to.  Not certain about that.  Case should have been dropped.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2022, 12:55:54 AM »

I seen people say Miller's lawyer wasn't allowed to present a case but wanted to.  Not certain about that.  Case should have been dropped.

I had not heard or read that Miller's lawyer wanted to proceed and wasn't allowed to. But Miller was dead, so the case should have been mooted and dropped.

Pb

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2022, 12:39:40 PM »

US versus Miller was a set up by a Democratic judge to destroy the Second Amendment.  It is a bizarre story, documented here:

https://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1263&context=law_facpub

Of course the Second Amendment was written to protect "weapons of war" made to kill people on the battlefield.  Everyone in the 18th century through US. versus Miller plainly said so.  There was much case law and commentary explaining the the Second Amendment did not protect civilian weapons but only those used is "civilized warfare."  Including cannons.  That means machine guns too.  But the ban on MGs will never be lifted because Judges are willing to be dishonest about it, because they hate the idea that we can own them.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 02:11:13 PM by Pb »

MechAg94

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2022, 02:18:50 PM »

Gun Owners of America (GOA) has released multiple documents that torpedo the Government’s case against Matthew Hoover and Kristopher Ervin in the AutoKeyCard case.
https://www.ammoland.com/2022/08/uncovered-documents-destroy-governments-case-autokeycard/

Quote
GOA has provided this documentation to AmmoLand News for our own independent analysis. Through careful examination and consulting with other legal experts, we can safely say that the documentation is game-changing and shows, based on the Government’s own documents, that the AutoKeyCard falls well outside of being a machine gun

Looks like previous evaluations of similar parts were judged by the ATF as "not a machine gun".  The article has links to the documents.  Crump said in his video that the parts had to be machined or shaped to a certain extent before it was to be judged a machine gun. 

Quote
Fourth, another document turned up by GOA is an ATF Intelligence Bulletin about “swift-links.” A swift link is another name for a lightning link. According to the ATF Intelligence Bulletin, ATF believes that a swift link becomes a machine gun when it has a template applied and is cut in the “approximate dimensions” of a fully finished swift link. The AutoKeyCard is not cut out and is nowhere close to the dimensions of a fully finished swift link. According to the ATF’s own standard, then, the AutoKeyCard cannot be considered a machine gun.


GOA Hands CRS A Get Out of Jail Free AutoKeyCard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYG4EXkq3gY
John Crump News
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Pb

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2022, 09:02:36 PM »

The BAFE changes their minds all the time about what is illegal and Judges always approve their latest decisions.  See bump stocks.  Is this really going to help?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2022, 04:03:04 PM »

The BAFE changes their minds all the time about what is illegal and Judges always approve their latest decisions.  See bump stocks.  Is this really going to help?

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/the-supreme-court-curbed-epas-power-to-regulate-carbon-emissions-from-power-plants-what-comes-next/
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Pb

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2022, 04:25:48 PM »

I hope you are right.  I doubt it.  Judges hate us owning machine guns or anything similar.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 09:53:26 PM by Pb »

230RN

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2022, 05:41:48 PM »

So, umm... is the belt loop on my pants now subject to a $200 tax stamp?

https://youtu.be/hI86T8RghWY (0:24)

https://youtu.be/ArvS1qMrM68 (0:09)

You can't call it bump fire, so is it pants fire?

MechAg94

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2022, 10:00:34 AM »

The BAFE changes their minds all the time about what is illegal and Judges always approve their latest decisions.  See bump stocks.  Is this really going to help?
In this case, the person didn't have the lightning link parts ready to go, it was just a diagram on a metal card.  It is my understanding the 80% receiver thing is not written in law either.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Brad Johnson

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2022, 02:59:13 PM »

Looks like previous evaluations of similar parts were judged by the ATF as "not a machine gun".  The article has links to the documents.  Crump said in his video that the parts had to be machined or shaped to a certain extent before it was to be judged a machine gun. 

This.

BATFEces has contradicted itself so many times over the years that it's become the default modus operandi. Fortunately we now have Bruen and a couple other cases which seem to indicate SCOTUS is currently operating under Strict Scrutiny provisions, at least for 2A cases. It will be hard for BATFEces to argue "We mean it now but didn't mean it before", especially when their previous approval contained detailed technical reasons why. Under those very reasons, Strict Scrutiny clearly shows AKC does not meet the unambiguous technical definition of an MG. Does it come right up to the line? Yeah, hard, and with questionable intent, but it still hasn't crossed it.

Brad
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 03:59:17 PM by Brad Johnson »
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MechAg94

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2022, 03:14:17 PM »

I thought Thomas said that gun control had to go beyond Strict Scrutiny and required a historical or traditional basis for the restrictions from the time when the 2nd Amendment and 14th Amendment were written. 

I am not sure how the EPA case was worded.  That one might apply to this as well since the ATF is taking this a bit further than the original NFA law.

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2022, 03:39:28 PM »

Not related to this case directly.  Person sued since state fair banned guns.  Judge ignored a couple of specific points from the Bruen case to rule that guns could be banned.  Apparent one of them is he applied something like intermediate scrutiny when Bruen specifically said that was no good.

Activist Judge Ignores Bruen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AlrfmKHr5M

I guess we will see where this goes.  Might take some time to get through the appeals process. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MikeB

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2022, 04:11:42 PM »

For the sake of argument. Let’s say I have a registered NFA AR receiver. Which it happens I do. If I take out the Auto Sear and put in a Lightning Link or DIAS do I now have an illegal machine gun inside of a legal machine gun? Do they cancel out?

Mr. BATF Man I would never actually do this, a real auto seat is superior in every way. it kind of points out some of the absurdity of how some gun laws work.

MikeB

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2022, 05:29:15 PM »

Also as I recall a lightning link requires an original Colt SP1 BCG or some conversion of other more modern Semi BCG Not all that common anymore. An DIAS requires machining part of the receiver for most all Semi ARs and that machining is generally also a no no by itself.

So just having one of those two things without the other parts wouldn’t exactly be readily convertible. I know the BATF has a loose definition of readily convertible. And I suppose a SP1 BCG is not really hard to find. Still without those specific parts or machining a DIAS or Lightning Link are nothing but paperweights and a Lightning Link wouldn’t even make a good paperweight.

Pb

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2022, 09:13:33 PM »

Judge ignored a couple of specific points from the Bruen case to rule that guns could be banned.  Apparent one of them is he applied something like intermediate scrutiny when Bruen specifically said that was no good.

Judges are politicians.  Just like all politicians, ignoring laws and, especially, the Constitution, in order to impose their personal moral beliefs is what they do.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2022, 09:37:00 PM »

 

I am not sure how the EPA case was worded.  That one might apply to this as well since the ATF is taking this a bit further than the original NFA law.

The EPA case is expected to have an effect on other agencies that make their own rules, including the BATFE.
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HankB

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2022, 09:08:32 AM »

The EPA case is expected to have an effect on other agencies that make their own rules, including the BATFE.
In view of the EPA case, it will be interesting to see if the BATmen still decide to reinterpret the law in regard to braced pistols this coming December as they've apparently planned. They may have an attitude of "We're doing this anyway, if you don't like it, sue us. We have more money than you do for lawyers."
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MechAg94

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2022, 12:39:05 PM »

For the sake of argument. Let’s say I have a registered NFA AR receiver. Which it happens I do. If I take out the Auto Sear and put in a Lightning Link or DIAS do I now have an illegal machine gun inside of a legal machine gun? Do they cancel out?

Mr. BATF Man I would never actually do this, a real auto seat is superior in every way. it kind of points out some of the absurdity of how some gun laws work.
If you were doing all this on a registered machine receiver, I would think it would be perfectly legal. 
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dogmush

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2022, 01:23:13 PM »

For the sake of argument. Let’s say I have a registered NFA AR receiver. Which it happens I do. If I take out the Auto Sear and put in a Lightning Link or DIAS do I now have an illegal machine gun inside of a legal machine gun? Do they cancel out?

Mr. BATF Man I would never actually do this, a real auto seat is superior in every way. it kind of points out some of the absurdity of how some gun laws work.

Just possessing the unregistered DIAS or Lightning Link is the crime, It doesn't matter if it's in your machine gun, a semi AR lower, or your sock drawer.  Those parts are themselves a machine gun and, if unregistered, a felony to possess.  Just like screwing an unregistered suppressor on to your machine gun is still illegal.

MikeB

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Re: Matt Hoover Auto Key Card NFA challenge via Bruen
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2022, 05:50:06 PM »

Just possessing the unregistered DIAS or Lightning Link is the crime, It doesn't matter if it's in your machine gun, a semi AR lower, or your sock drawer.  Those parts are themselves a machine gun and, if unregistered, a felony to possess.  Just like screwing an unregistered suppressor on to your machine gun is still illegal.

I know that. The rhetorical questions were to point out the absurdity of those parts being considered a separate machine gun even if the possessor had them in a registered legal machine gun.
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