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Author Topic: Only the police should have guns  (Read 690 times)

WLJ

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Only the police should have guns
« on: July 22, 2022, 11:26:59 AM »

You know, because they're trained experts unlike you and me.
How many of the gun rules were violated in this?

Quote
Punta Gorda (FL) Police officer Lee Coel didn’t know the difference between lead wadcutters (right, above) and .38 Special blanks (left) when he loaded his personally-owned Smith & Wesson Airweight revolver before a demonstration that saw him fire four rounds and kill a retired librarian in front of horrified onlookers.

He was fired and charged with manslaughter

Punta Gorda Police Couldn't Tell Blanks From Wadcutters When He Shot Librarian
https://bearingarms.com/bobowens-bearingarms/2017/03/16/punta-gorda-police-couldnt-tell-blanks-wadcutters-shot-librarian-n29398
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HankB

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2022, 04:37:52 PM »

Only manslaughter? Seems a bit on the light side to me for what he did.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2022, 04:59:32 PM »

Somebody needs Cooper's Four Rules tattooed in reverse on his forehead so every time he looks in the mirror he can read them.
"Spare me the bulls*** about constitutional rights."
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Boomhauer

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2022, 07:15:05 PM »

Make being executed for incompetence great again
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Jim147

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2022, 09:09:43 PM »

Moron. Yes I think death by firing squad would not be wrong for him. Tell him they are using blanks.

Look around at the police and congress critters. I think firearms safety and education should be required in every grade of school every year.
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MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2022, 11:43:50 PM »

I agree with the comments from the link.  Yes, this guy is stupid and should have known better...., BUT, he wasn't the only one there and I wouldn't be suprised if this had been done before many times.  Poor safety practices by the department in general.  Why else was it okay to point a firearm at someone in a training exercise whether it had blanks or not?
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gunsmith

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2022, 01:11:51 AM »

 :facepalm:
 :'(

 that's terrible, what a fool.
I often tell people when in a gun control debate, that all high school kids should need to learn gun safety in order to graduate
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MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2022, 10:54:31 PM »

:facepalm:
 :'(

 that's terrible, what a fool.
I often tell people when in a gun control debate, that all high school kids should need to learn gun safety in order to graduate
But then you would likely end up with young school teachers fresh out of college trying to teach it.  Or the school resource officers (and we have seen how good they are the last few years). 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2022, 10:56:00 PM »

Florida Ex-Cop Who Killed a Woman During an Exercise Wants His Probation Deal Ended Early
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/florida-ex-cop-who-killed-a-woman-during-an-exercise-wants-his-probation-deal-ended-early/

Quote
After serving just one-quarter of his sentence, Coel now wants his probation terminated. There will be a hearing July 25 before Lee County Circuit Court Judge Margaret Steinbeck, to determine whether Coel’s probation will end early. Steinbeck is the same judge who sentenced Coel to probation rather than prison.

I don't think he should get probation cut at all.  No jail time for manslaughter is a sweetheart deal.  Amazing the difference between this guy and the cop in the Floyd trial.
The article did say the family got $2 Million from the city.  Not a big payment for such a huge screw up with their training. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Big Hairy Bee

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2022, 11:46:24 PM »

:facepalm:
 :'(

 that's terrible, what a fool.
I often tell people when in a gun control debate, that all high school kids should need to learn gun safety in order to graduate

Some years back when I was teacher at a charter Montessori school, we had a couple family campouts a year.  I often took students, and some parents plinking with .22s.  Safety was paramount and they were told no second chances with me for rule violations.  Never had an issue.  Fun memory was a 7th grade girl wanting to shoot the 45ACP instead of the 22 conversion slide.  I warned her it was quite different and I fired a magazine to show her.  She went and rocked it!

I had a gun safety class in PE in high school in the early 80s.

230RN

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2022, 01:49:59 AM »

Well, wadcutters are usually loaded flush to the case mouth, right?  I've exerimented with them, but only loaded backwards to test the effectiveness of that giant hollow point, which was meh, and accuracy was meh squared.  As far as I know, the only advantage to wadcutters is they cut clean holes in target paper for scoring purposes.

So given the flush-to-the-mouth loading, I suppose it's possible to confuse  wadcutters  with blanks, but I guess it's a question of not being able to tell the difference between lead and a cardboard. top wad/  Let alone the difference in weight.

I'm mad as hell about it, but capital punishment is not in order. It was unintended stupid gross negligence resulting in a fatal accident.  I'm sure what goes on in his mind is lots of punishment, but it's not enough.

Terry, 230RN

230RN

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2022, 01:53:35 AM »

....

Boomhauer

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2022, 04:53:15 AM »

Well, wadcutters are usually loaded flush to the case mouth, right?  I've exerimented with them, but only loaded backwards to test the effectiveness of that giant hollow point, which was meh, and accuracy was meh squared.  As far as I know, the only advantage to wadcutters is they cut clean holes in target paper for scoring purposes.

So given the flush-to-the-mouth loading, I suppose it's possible to confuse  wadcutters  with blanks, but I guess it's a question of not being able to tell the difference between lead and a cardboard. top wad/  Let alone the difference in weight.

I'm mad as hell about it, but capital punishment is not in order. It was unintended stupid gross negligence resulting in a fatal accident.  I'm sure what goes on in his mind is lots of punishment, but it's not enough.

Terry, 230RN

You aren’t supposed to shoot blanks at people either. Remember several people have been killed by blanks at close range.

And of course the whole Alec Baldwin debacle should have ended anybody’s willingness to point a live firearm at someone else for such things. You couldn’t ask for a higher profile demonstration of why the safety rules exist.
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Tuco

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2022, 09:50:00 AM »

Four shots were fired from a SW airweight. At least 2 All 4 were wadcutters that Two hit the victim. Blanks recoil _much_ less than a 148 gr wadcutter. The airweight will make sure you notice.

I can see a manslaughter charge for a single shot causing accidental death.  Regardless of which slug killed, the other 3 shots signify something  that's not being reported, and stink of something stronger than manslaughter.

>Neither an attorney, nor familiar with Florida statute.

ETA My point being: The gunman knew, the moment the first slug left the cylinder, that he was throwing lead.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 01:10:24 PM by Tuco »
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230RN

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2022, 11:11:00 AM »

I agree that it shouldn't be done in the first place, especially in view of the recent Baldwin incident and other deaths from blanks.

However, from what I can gather, this  practice was an ongoing thing with that PD, and hence somewhat "normalized."

Were I in charge, I'd have stopped the practice the minute I heard about it, but I wasn't.  So some of the liability goes to the folks in charge who allowed it to continue.

I also wonder why some rounds hit the hood of the car.

There are a lot of questions on this one, though.

MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2022, 02:42:57 PM »

Another incident: 
Police trainer charged after he reportedly shot and killed a woman while pulling out his pistol to show how quickly it could be drawn
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/cm/police-trainer-charged-reportedly-shot-141736537.html
Another link said it was baton training and afterward, the trainer was showing off his quick draw. 
Quote
During the training for officers at Anacostia Neighborhood Library, Jesse Porter allegedly pulled out his pistol to show how quickly it could be drawn, and fired a shot that hit 25-year-old Maurica Manyan in the chest, NBC Washington reported.

Porter, 58, has been charged with involuntary manslaughter, according to DC police.
Why he felt the need to draw and point it at the woman I have no idea. 

Officer killed after shooting during training exercise inside Anacostia Library
https://wtop.com/dc/2022/08/woman-hospitalized-after-shooting-inside-anacostia-library/

https://policetribune.com/special-police-officer-fatally-shot-during-baton-training-trainer-arrested-for-involuntary-manslaughter/
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2022, 04:07:25 PM »

You know something's wrong when Rasta-narc suddenly doesn't look that bad anymore.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2022, 06:30:15 PM »

You know something's wrong when Rasta-narc suddenly doesn't look that bad anymore.

True. At least he only shot himself -- and only (literally) in the foot.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2022, 11:02:19 PM »

Oh, carp!

Another incident: 

https://policetribune.com/special-police-officer-fatally-shot-during-baton-training-trainer-arrested-for-involuntary-manslaughter/

From the article:

Quote
DC Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) Chief Robert Contee said the department received a report of a shooting and responded to find a female MSPD officer unconscious and suffering from a gunshot wound, according to WJLA.

She was rushed to an area hospital, where she was later pronounced dead.

The MPD identified the fallen hero as 25-year-old MSPD Officer Maurica Manyan on Friday, according to The Washington Post.

There's so much wrong here I don't know where to start.

It is a tragedy, the officer did NOT deserve to die that way, and nothing that anyone can say will bring her back. That said, she was a 25-year old library security guard. Dying a premature and undeserved death does not make her a "hero" -- it makes her a dead library security guard. Characterizing everyone with a badge or a uniform as a "hero" devalues the term "Hero."

And the curmudgeon in me rebels at calling heroic females "Hero." The feminine term is "Heroine." (Just as the feminine form of "actor" is "Actress," and the feminine form of "comedian" is "comedienne.")

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2022, 11:05:35 PM »

So, kind of like the feminine for of Mr. President was Barrack Obama then...
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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zxcvbob

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2022, 10:13:39 AM »

And the curmudgeon in me rebels at calling heroic females "Hero." The feminine term is "Heroine." (Just as the feminine form of "actor" is "Actress," and the feminine form of "comedian" is "comedienne.")

I actually dislike having different words for female heroes, actors, and comedians.  Mainly because "heroine" is not necessarily heroic, it can just mean the leading female character; little more than a plot device for the real hero.  And I don't like comedienne because it's unnecessarily hard to spell ;)  "Actress" is okay but implies that maybe the standards are different than for an actor.
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HankB

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2022, 11:52:21 AM »

Florida Ex-Cop Who Killed a Woman During an Exercise Wants His Probation Deal Ended Early
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/florida-ex-cop-who-killed-a-woman-during-an-exercise-wants-his-probation-deal-ended-early/

I don't think he should get probation cut at all.  No jail time for manslaughter is a sweetheart deal.  Amazing the difference between this guy and the cop in the Floyd trial.
The article did say the family got $2 Million from the city.  Not a big payment for such a huge screw up with their training.
It really ticks me off when government employees (or others with "connections") who screw up in a major way and receive a light slap on the wrist then have the chutzpah to complain about the severity of their absurdly light consequences and try to have their already minimal consequences reduced. I remember when Charlie Rangel got nailed for tax evasion, and was crying about how "harsh" it was for him to be censured by the legislature. ("Censure" was little more than someone wagging their finger at him and saying "Naughty, naughty.") But at least Charlie didn't KILL some innocent the way the Florida ex-cop did.  :mad:

Two tier justice undermines confidence in the entire system.
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gunsmith

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2022, 04:40:44 PM »

Oh, carp!

From the article:

There's so much wrong here I don't know where to start.

It is a tragedy, the officer did NOT deserve to die that way, and nothing that anyone can say will bring her back. That said, she was a 25-year old library security guard. Dying a premature and undeserved death does not make her a "hero" -- it makes her a dead library security guard. Characterizing everyone with a badge or a uniform as a "hero" devalues the term "Hero."

And the curmudgeon in me rebels at calling heroic females "Hero." The feminine term is "Heroine." (Just as the feminine form of "actor" is "Actress," and the feminine form of "comedian" is "comedienne.")

 It's the Idiocracy,  I find it really annoying too .  Many folks in the modern workplace would be able to recognize the words you used
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cordex

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2022, 08:54:06 AM »

I actually dislike having different words for female heroes, actors, and comedians.  Mainly because "heroine" is not necessarily heroic, it can just mean the leading female character; little more than a plot device for the real hero.
Is that a problem with having a gender-specific term or is it really an issue with specific stories?
"Actress" is okay but implies that maybe the standards are different than for an actor.
Why do you think it implies that?

With the exception of your entirely justified distaste over the spelling of "comedienne", your concerns over having gendered terms seems to revolve around your internal biases or the specific material you consume.  That is to say, a "heroine" does not inherently mean "plot device for the real hero" any more than "hero" means "feckless dolt who must be lectured to and outclassed at every turn by females who are superior to him in every possible way" as seen in many modern movies.  Likewise, "actress" doesn't intrinsically or definitionally signify anything diminutive or sub-standard compared to "actor".  That strikes me as baggage you're bringing to it.

MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should have guns
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2022, 09:41:14 AM »

I actually dislike having different words for female heroes, actors, and comedians.  Mainly because "heroine" is not necessarily heroic, it can just mean the leading female character; little more than a plot device for the real hero.  And I don't like comedienne because it's unnecessarily hard to spell ;)  "Actress" is okay but implies that maybe the standards are different than for an actor.
The term "hero" often doesn't signify anything heroic either.  As mentioned by others, the term is overused and applied to people it shouldn't both in real life and movies.  I don't agree that "heroine" is the same as female protagonist.  That strikes me as people in the entertainment world who have poor vocabulary.  Similar to labeling everyone who isn't a bad person as a hero.   
Just my heroic opinion.   =)
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