Author Topic: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI  (Read 16070 times)

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,849
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #275 on: August 25, 2022, 10:25:37 AM »
Where's the beef?
Still no big reveal of what they found which to me says that this is another in a long line of big nothing burgers.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

DittoHead

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,574
  • Writing for the Bulwark since August 2019
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #276 on: August 25, 2022, 12:11:08 PM »
So, did Trump have classified documents?
Yes, at least as of January 2022 it seems he apparently did. Harder to say if he still had more after that.

As you are no doubt aware, NARA had ongoing communications with the former President’s representatives throughout 2021 about what appeared to be missing Presidential records, which resulted in the transfer of 15 boxes of records to NARA in January 2022. In its initial review of materials within those boxes, NARA identified items marked as classified national security information, up to the level of Top Secret and including Sensitive Compartmented Information and Special Access Program materials.
...
According to NARA, among the materials in the boxes are over 100 documents with classification markings, comprising more than 700 pages. Some include the highest levels of classification, including Special Access Program (SAP) materials. Access to the materials is not only necessary for purposes of our ongoing criminal investigation, but the Executive Branch must also conduct an assessment of the potential damage resulting from the apparent manner in which these materials were stored and transported and take any necessary remedial steps.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

sumpnz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,304
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #277 on: August 25, 2022, 12:33:47 PM »
Does potus have or not have plenary power to declassify documents?

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,849
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #278 on: August 25, 2022, 12:39:09 PM »
The Mystery of Al Capone's Donald Trump's Vaults

Road maps! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWhKoMemTbk
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,671
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #279 on: August 25, 2022, 03:23:21 PM »
Does potus have or not have plenary power to declassify documents?

He does have that power, yes.  However, there's no indication he DID in fact declassify them, and Mr. Trump is no longer the CinC.  By all accounts the documents in question were still properly marked as classified, and there's no indication that the info in them is now available to anyone filing a FOIA request.  As with anything in the fed.gov, there's a process to declassification, and while the CinC can short circuit that process, if he does he'd better make darn sure he documented his declassification properly, and that the info is actually no longer national security information.

IMO the government is very likely to claim that they were never actually declassified, or that the info is still sensitive and Trump was told after he left office that the papers had been reclassified and had to be returned.  Or some combination of both.  Certainly Trump knew he had to give some stuff back because he gave the Archives 15 boxes back in the spring.

Still, normally when a former high ranking official has classified info (and it happens a lot) the whole situation is handled quite a bit differently, on both sides.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #280 on: August 25, 2022, 03:38:17 PM »
IMO the government is very likely to claim that they were never actually declassified, or that the info is still sensitive and Trump was told after he left office that the papers had been reclassified and had to be returned.  Or some combination of both. 

This is similar to what I'm going with. Just knowing the twitter side of Trump, he probably just did a hand wave and said, "you are no longer classified" and ignored protocol. Maybe not for all stuff, but for some stuff just because he figured he didn't want to or have to screw with the paperwork.

He absolutely can declassify whatever, but there would be protocols. I can understand being frustrated with ridiculous gov paperwork, but I guess it will come down to how much a president can ignore paperwork and procedure. Apparently Obama also did some "hand wave" declassification under the same circumstances, but he of course gets a free pass.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

DittoHead

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,574
  • Writing for the Bulwark since August 2019
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #281 on: August 25, 2022, 03:41:40 PM »
Does potus have or not have plenary power to declassify documents?

Quote from: Trump's former COS Mick Mulvaney
Yes, any president of the United States has broad authority to declassify documents. That being said, there's a formal structure to doing that. You can't just sort of stand over a box of documents, wave your hand and say these are all declassified. That's not how the system works.

If the documents were still marked as classified and there's no documentation of them being declassified, are we supposed to take Trump's word that he declassified them when he still had that power and just didn't bother telling anyone? At the very least that seems like something that would have been worth mentioning when he returned those documents and his lawyer signed paperwork certifying that they had returned all classified materials.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

DittoHead

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,574
  • Writing for the Bulwark since August 2019
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #282 on: August 25, 2022, 03:46:45 PM »
Apparently Obama also did some "hand wave" declassification under the same circumstances, but he of course gets a free pass.

I would like to read more about this, if you have any links.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

Jim147

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,587
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #283 on: August 25, 2022, 09:20:11 PM »
I would like to read more about this, if you have any links.

I don't have any links but he did it several times while talking to world leaders or having an aid without clearance in the room. He also gave the National Archive a bunch of money to rent the 30,000 plus things he took home.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,199
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #284 on: August 25, 2022, 10:19:07 PM »
Does potus have or not have plenary power to declassify documents?

I believe the President has complete and final power to classify and to declassify documents.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #285 on: August 25, 2022, 11:06:31 PM »
This is similar to what I'm going with. Just knowing the twitter side of Trump, he probably just did a hand wave and said, "you are no longer classified" and ignored protocol. Maybe not for all stuff, but for some stuff just because he figured he didn't want to or have to screw with the paperwork.

He absolutely can declassify whatever, but there would be protocols. I can understand being frustrated with ridiculous gov paperwork, but I guess it will come down to how much a president can ignore paperwork and procedure. Apparently Obama also did some "hand wave" declassification under the same circumstances, but he of course gets a free pass.

Specifically, what are the protocols for the Final Classification Authority to declassify material?

Because, the protocol, as it was taught to me in cryptology school, can actually be as simple as the FCA choosing to talk about it openly or handing the materials to a previously unauthorized person.  Their powers of declassification pretty much had no bounds.  Classifying on the other-hand had all sorts of entanglements to prevent abuse, but DEclassifying was carte blanc.

But what would I know.  kermitTea.jpg

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,671
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #286 on: August 26, 2022, 05:40:32 AM »
By process, I was thinking things like, remove cover sheets, telling people it was declassified, making sure other folks with the same info get the memo that it's declassified.

Sure, the CinC could just throw a bunch of *expletive deleted*it in a box and say "poof, that box is declassified", but if the stuff inside still has a SF 703 stapled to the front of it, no one will believe him later.

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #287 on: August 26, 2022, 06:38:44 AM »
By process, I was thinking things like, remove cover sheets, telling people it was declassified, making sure other folks with the same info get the memo that it's declassified.

Sure, the CinC could just throw a bunch of *expletive deleted*it in a box and say "poof, that box is declassified", but if the stuff inside still has a SF 703 stapled to the front of it, no one will believe him later.

And?  Let me show you how this works.

TS//SI/TK/BYE/4EYE//25X1 UNCLASSIFIED

Done.  Documents change caveats all the time. 

But I'm sure the collectivists have Trump this time! 

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,671
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #288 on: August 26, 2022, 07:15:18 AM »
I'm very familiar with how it works.

See what you did there? You changed the markings, and had it been real, you would have recorded the date and DCA on the post. I suspect Trump didn't do that.

I don't care if the get Trump or not, as I said earlier even if he has classified information this is not how this kind of thing is historically handled at senior executive levels.

I just pointed out that given Trump's personality it's plausible that he didn't actually declassify info when he was the DCA, or that info was subsequently reclassified and he ignored it.

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #289 on: August 26, 2022, 07:50:39 AM »
I'm very familiar with how it works.

See what you did there? You changed the markings, and had it been real, you would have recorded the date and DCA on the post. I suspect Trump didn't do that.

I don't care if the get Trump or not, as I said earlier even if he has classified information this is not how this kind of thing is historically handled at senior executive levels.

I just pointed out that given Trump's personality it's plausible that he didn't actually declassify info when he was the DCA, or that info was subsequently reclassified and he ignored it.

As mentioned potus can declas stuff by action or word.  I was demonstrating how little the written caveat headers can mean.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,564
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #290 on: August 26, 2022, 07:54:37 AM »
This is similar to what I'm going with. Just knowing the twitter side of Trump, he probably just did a hand wave and said, "you are no longer classified" and ignored protocol. Maybe not for all stuff, but for some stuff just because he figured he didn't want to or have to screw with the paperwork.

He absolutely can declassify whatever, but there would be protocols. I can understand being frustrated with ridiculous gov paperwork, but I guess it will come down to how much a president can ignore paperwork and procedure. Apparently Obama also did some "hand wave" declassification under the same circumstances, but he of course gets a free pass.
Classifying or declassifying a document is clearly an executive power.  Article 2 Section 1  of the Constitution begins with "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America."  Constitution doesn't say anything about POTUS having to follow some bureaucrat's protocols or fill out forms created from some bureaucrat to classify or declassify, the power lies with him and him alone. If some drone doesn't like that, too bad - it's up to HIM (or HER) to accommodate POTUS, not the other way around.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,030
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #291 on: August 26, 2022, 02:54:29 PM »
The DOJ has release docs. Well, part of them. Okay, only a third. Apparently roughly two thirds of the document varies from heavily to totally redacted.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-raid-search-warrant-affidavit-unsealed-read-document

A third of something that politically charged is essentially useless. It already read whatever they wanted it to, and the redactions will just be used to twist it more. They might as well have not released them at all.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #292 on: August 26, 2022, 02:58:41 PM »
A third of something that heavily politicized is essentially useless. Even the redactions can be used to make it read what they want it to. They might as well have not released them at all.

Brad

That's exactly what I was afraid of. This will only make each side dig in deeper, and will likely have fence sitters choosing sides based on incomplete and manipulated information.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #294 on: August 27, 2022, 08:20:52 AM »
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

sumpnz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,304

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,199
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #296 on: August 27, 2022, 01:21:30 PM »
I still find it instructive that the .gov has its collective knickers in a twist over some boxes of paper in a closet at Trump's private residence, where nobody had access to them ... but that same .gov hasn't done anything about the fact that Hilary Clinton (who did NOT have final classification/declassification authority) had classified documents on her unsecured, personal server in her home, where hackers from all over the world had access to them.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

MikeB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 924
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #297 on: August 27, 2022, 04:32:58 PM »
It it these documents the FBI is so upset about?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia/trump-says-he-has-declassified-documents-related-to-russia-clinton-email-probes-idUSKBN26S030

I think the FBI has been ignoring or fighting Trump's order to declassify all the documents related to the Russia nonsense and the probe into Clinton's email stuff. I don't recall them ever being released. Perhaps they are worried he has copies of these documents and would release them?


WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,849
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #298 on: August 27, 2022, 04:41:36 PM »
It it these documents the FBI is so upset about?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia/trump-says-he-has-declassified-documents-related-to-russia-clinton-email-probes-idUSKBN26S030

I think the FBI has been ignoring or fighting Trump's order to declassify all the documents related to the Russia nonsense and the probe into Clinton's email stuff. I don't recall them ever being released. Perhaps they are worried he has copies of these documents and would release them?

Donald Trump did not kill himself
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Mar-A-Lago raided and occupied by FBI
« Reply #299 on: August 28, 2022, 12:37:03 AM »
I still find it instructive that the .gov has its collective knickers in a twist over some boxes of paper in a closet at Trump's private residence, where nobody had access to them ... but that same .gov hasn't done anything about the fact that Hilary Clinton (who did NOT have final classification/declassification authority) had classified documents on her unsecured, personal server in her home, where hackers from all over the world had access to them.

Thank you for bringing that up.  I thought about that but completely forgot to post it.