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Author Topic: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!  (Read 2021 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #100 on: September 09, 2022, 10:29:42 AM »

Ron, it seems to me that you're confusing limited platform overlap with a nefarious plan.

Couldn't a leftist equally say "those Libertarians come in here with their righteous positions about being in favor of killing babies, lack of borders, and legal dope, but that's just a Trojan horse to sneak in their abhorrent beliefs about allowing free speech and guns!"?

I'm pretty sure they do that from time to time, though I don't have the receipts.

You'd think baby-killing would plainly be against that whole non-aggression thing for Libertarians, but a lot of them manage to get past that one, somehow.
I do not own a boat. I still have all my guns, cuz this is America.

Ron

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #101 on: September 09, 2022, 10:35:02 AM »

Ron, do you think the problems you're talking about are really problems with libertarianism, or are they problems with our culture? Our religious beliefs, or lack thereof?

Would it be fair to say that libertarianism may work as a political philosophy, but not as a personal belief system, or as a social order?

Myself, I still believe a lot of libertarian concepts are good and work in limited domains. They just don't scale up well in my opinion. And yes, the economic principles have been used as a stalking horse to destroy traditional morality.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

dogmush

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #102 on: September 09, 2022, 10:36:18 AM »

Would it be fair to say that libertarianism may work as a political philosophy, but not as a personal belief system

I think that's a good way to phrase it.  (I dropped social order from the quote because that's more complicated, not that I necessarily disagree).

I think that's also true of any healthy political philosophy.  It needs some good personal belief system to rest on.  Lots of folks around here have mentioned that the Constitution only works for a moral people, and the same holds true of any other good political philosophy.  (Communism doesn't work regardless of morality).


That may be the core of why the recent "woke" folks are so toxic and annoying.  They internalized their political beliefs as a morality system.

Ron

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #103 on: September 09, 2022, 10:44:45 AM »

Ron, it seems to me that you're confusing limited platform overlap with a nefarious plan.

Couldn't a leftist equally say "those Libertarians come in here with their righteous positions about being in favor of killing babies, lack of borders, and legal dope, but that's just a Trojan horse to sneak in their abhorrent beliefs about allowing free speech and guns!"?

There are a lot of moving pieces that got us here.  Whether there is a nefarious plan by mortals besides the normal entropy of human institutions I couldn't prove, other than pointing out where it sure likes like that's what's going on. Of course as a Christian I believe there is a spiritual component due to the entropy of sin and actual malign evil spiritual influence that "seeks to work us woe", desiring our corruption, death and separation from God.

As Classical Liberals and libertarians we have failed to hold on to our culture and nation and have ceded ground to the enemy by embracing lies. We can wake up and reject the lies if we want.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

Pb

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2022, 01:05:39 PM »

I think Ron is right about libertarianism.

If you ask people lots of questions about their moral values and what the find acceptable, libertarians are much closer to leftists than conservatives.  Both leftists and libertarians tend to have zero respect for tradition and authority.  Respect for legitimate authority and tradition is the major part of conservatism. 

The major way that libertarians differ from leftists is that libertarians rate low on care for other people.

The Righteous Mind by Johnathan Haidt discusses this issue- the different moral world views of leftists, conservatives, and libertarians.

Widespread graphic immorality- drug abuse, prostitution, open homosexuality, fornication, pornography- are all things that make countries worse places to live... and libertarians are okay with this.  These things are rotting the fabric of our society, though they are "victimless" crimes.

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #105 on: September 09, 2022, 01:08:17 PM »

Widespread graphic immorality- drug abuse, prostitution, open homosexuality, fornication, pornography- are all things that make countries worse places to live... and libertarians are okay with this.  These things are rotting the fabric of our society, though they are "victimless" crimes.
Just out of curiosity, what power are you prepared to give to the government in order to restrict or eliminate those particular issues of morality?

dogmush

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #106 on: September 09, 2022, 01:23:52 PM »


Widespread graphic immorality- drug abuse, prostitution, open homosexuality, fornication, pornography- are all things that make countries worse places to live... and libertarians are okay with this.  These things are rotting the fabric of our society, though they are "victimless" crimes.

I think you have, at best, a correlation/ causation issue here. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and North Korea all have low rates of those sins, and are not great places to live,  The Netherlands has legalized and embraced much of that, and while I don't want to live there personally, by all accounts it's pretty nice in the day to day living. As is Bahrain (compared to the rest of the Islamic run world.

The US's problems stem from out of control Collectivism,  not sex and drugs. The Collectivism and the Sex were just brought into the mainstream by the same people, so people think they are the same thing.

Pb

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #107 on: September 09, 2022, 01:35:30 PM »

Just out of curiosity, what power are you prepared to give to the government in order to restrict or eliminate those particular issues of morality?

It depends on the issue... for example, I think prostitution should be illegal, and probably most drug abuse.  It should be illegal for school to promote homosexuality to children.  I think adultery should be illegal as it use to be, and produce significant consequences in divorce settlements, and "alienation of affection" lawsuits.

About fornication, nothing can really be done in a legal sense.  Society could condemn it, rather than promote it, at least.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #108 on: September 09, 2022, 01:43:53 PM »

Just out of curiosity, what power are you prepared to give to the government in order to restrict or eliminate those particular issues of morality?

^^This.

Also, one has to be eternally careful of confusing libertarianism as a means of operating a government (a political philosophy) with a means of living a fulfilling life (a moral philosophy or dogma).  Morally, I'm a stoic objectivist.  Politically, I'm an ancap libertarian.  Teaching my boy, I'm teaching him stoic objectivism as a moral code.  He is free to supplant that with whatever he finds wholesome as he gets older... even free to do so as a youth as long as he can support his stance.  His grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins are all LDS and he's free to choose to pursue that faith or any other if he expresses interest.  It comes up in conversation every few months as holidays come by or cousins have confirmations or whatever or marriages or funerals find us incorrigible heathens in churches. 

I'm actually very open to him chasing a faith.  I would say I have some degree of envy for those of you who actually do believe in an identifiable God as a higher power, and can accept the dogma of Mary's virgin conception and all of that.  I genuinely don't believe it and think it's hooey.  Things sure are easier if you do believe it though.  You've got all this pre-printed and pre-formulated syllabus material to use to adopt a halfway decent moral code, and can use it for raising children with decent morals.  It's exhausting finding ways to illustrate good vs bad decisions, even more so at a meta level, without sacred objects or statements or displeasure of omnipotent beings.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Pb

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #109 on: September 09, 2022, 01:50:35 PM »

The US's problems stem from out of control Collectivism,  not sex and drugs. The Collectivism and the Sex were just brought into the mainstream by the same people, so people think they are the same thing.

I think the Saudis have plenty of perverse sex, given what I have read about the Saudi royal family, and rampant boy rape in Islamic countries regardless if what the law says.  The North Koreans have squads of sex slaves for government officials.

And frankly, even if the Saudis and North Koreans don't practice these things, it is not vice laws that make them crap, it is everything else they do... ie, Islam and Communism.

Denmark has a rotten culture, like the USA, though I don't know which is worse.

The United States publicly embraces and promotes vice.  I have kids, all this is being preached to them by the government and every major media outlet.  I want my kids to marry people of the opposite sex (why do I even have to say that), not get divorced, and have legitimate children that they care for.  I don't want them to decide they are the opposite sex, and get castrated!!!  I want healthy, happy grandkids. 

Our families are turning to garbage, with a bastardy rate of over 40% and a divorce rate around the same.  I think there is no doubt that vile morals contribute greatly to bastardry and divorce.

If you think fornication, adultery, prostitution, homosexual sodomy and drug abuse aren't problems, we will agree to disagree.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #110 on: September 09, 2022, 02:44:38 PM »

I think adultery should be illegal as it use to be, and produce significant consequences in divorce settlements, and "alienation of affection" lawsuits.

Adultery was illegal? When was that?

I'm not sure divorce should be as easy as it has become, especially when children are involved.
I do not own a boat. I still have all my guns, cuz this is America.

Bogie

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #111 on: September 09, 2022, 03:02:14 PM »

Personally, I think it should be more difficult to get married.
 
And I am STILL hoping that there is a TV reality show called Gay Divorce Court.
 
I also think that there should be a license for procreation. No bag limit, but you have to at least prove competence about a few things.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #112 on: September 09, 2022, 03:33:52 PM »


I also think that there should be a license for procreation. No bag limit, but you have to at least prove competence about a few things.

Please tell me you're not serious.
I do not own a boat. I still have all my guns, cuz this is America.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #113 on: September 09, 2022, 03:35:08 PM »

Personally, I think it should be more difficult to get married.
 
And I am STILL hoping that there is a TV reality show called Gay Divorce Court.
 
I also think that there should be a license for procreation. No bag limit, but you have to at least prove competence about a few things.

Licenses for biological functions?  How utterly Communist/Authoritarian.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

dogmush

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #114 on: September 09, 2022, 05:29:09 PM »

Many humans skew very Authoritarian in their beliefs, as long as it's their sort of authoritarianism.  American Conservatives are not immune to this.  Neither are Christians.  They are also not alone in it.

It seems to be part of human nature to think your tribe is right, and if you could just *make* the other tribes do it for a bit, they'd see it and all will be well.

WLJ

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #115 on: September 09, 2022, 05:47:34 PM »

Many people support things like communism because they're convinced they'll be the ones in charge. *cough* AOC *cough*
Most aren't aware that people like them usually find their backs to the wall once their usefulness runs out.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #116 on: September 09, 2022, 06:38:33 PM »

Many humans skew very Authoritarian in their beliefs, as long as it's their sort of authoritarianism.  American Conservatives are not immune to this.  Neither are Christians.  They are also not alone in it.

It seems to be part of human nature to think your tribe is right, and if you could just *make* the other tribes do it for a bit, they'd see it and all will be well.

If we just made all them millennial zoomer punks serve 2 years in the military,  it'd straighten things right out!
I do not own a boat. I still have all my guns, cuz this is America.

Ron

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2022, 07:11:43 PM »

Well we see where see where post modernism leads, civilizational decline and probable collapse.

We don't know where libertarianism ends because its never been tried by the right people, everybody is getting it wrong apparently. Don't blame us.

Moral value systems not based on acknowledging transcendent reality are nothing more than personal preference. Even the ancient Stoics acknowledged the Logos, the good, the true and the beautiful. Otherwise your morality is disconnected from any mooring and ends up in the course of generations with perverts grooming and abusing children, degradation of the populace and societal decline. The patterns are there to see in history for those with eyes to see, it's not esoteric hidden knowledge.

Ancap libertarianism would look different than the globalism we have today where international corporations dictate to a large extent the way society runs?  All we've done is ended up with the worst perversions of both ancap and libertarianism. You've got your feeding stalls, barn to sleep in, treadmill to run or field to plow and your fweedom to be a decadent moral reprobate so you can forget your misery by more and more extreme perversion and intoxication.

Freeriding on the former Christian (ized) culture is coming to an end and we are getting to see the fruit of post modernist nihilism in its many guises.

Side note, unless you acknowledge the miracle of the creation we're surrounded by and the creator who made and sustains it, speaking of miracles will just sound like hooey. Got to go back to the first principles and unprovable suppositions you are starting with. We all have unprovable suppositions at the ground floor of belief system.

I won't beat this horse here anymore, we haven't had one of these for a while! Don't take the shots at libertarianism personally as they weren't intended that way. I was a self described classical liberal when I joined here.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

Bogie

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2022, 08:24:31 PM »

Hey, just give them a multiple choice test:
 
Your toddler just projectile vomited spaghetti all over your new sofa. What do you do?
 
a) Beat him until he understands he shouldn't do that.
 
b) Don't feed him spaghetti again.
 
c) Clean the mess up.
 
d) Call the police.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #119 on: September 09, 2022, 09:41:12 PM »



I won't beat this horse here anymore, we haven't had one of these for a while! Don't take the shots at libertarianism personally as they weren't intended that way. I was a self described classical liberal when I joined here.

I love when these threads come up here as long as they remain civil, and I think this one has thus far.  Some of your statements do come across as over-generalized and do feel like personal attacks, lumping all libertarians into one godless sinful hedonistic pot >:D, but I think that's more the constant defense that libertarians have to wage against both left and right, who don't grok the extent that authoritarian policy in any direction is repulsive to libertarians, without a clear-cut violation of innocent property or life... and that in "sensitive grey areas" involving innocent property or life that libertarians will favor siding with individual autonomy over blanket authoritarian edict.  I'm lumping your attacks in with equally ill informed ones from Antifa types (equally unfair to you) that see us AnCaps as even more devil incarnate than dumb bible thumping 'Murica *let's not go there* (in their terms).  The dedication we have to immutable and inflexible absolute individual rights, transcending any citeable law or philosophy, brings out the REEEEEEE! in their little Marxist steampot of a brain.

For every drifter bum libertarian pot smoker in a microbus or beat up RV, there's a bow-tie clad Milton Friedman fan, or Amash/Napolitano style Christian libertarian somewhere else.  It's a political party inherently NOT interested in unity, which is why that microbus pot smoker can meet up with bow-tie guy and the Christian guy and work well on a project they all care about, or otherwise find a means of engaging in commerce or productive exchange with one another, because they respect one anothers' boundaries and rights to those boundaries.  I see this every summer at our local Jackalope Freedom Festival that's been going for 11 years now.  You might find some Anarcho-Mutualists in the mix, but they're not so bad.  They're not going to burn down your business; it's the Syndicalists and Communists that do that stuff, and they steer clear of libertarians, AnCaps, or anything Agorist in nature.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Ron

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #120 on: September 10, 2022, 09:45:04 AM »

Ancap and libertarianism are appealing to me in an intellectual way. I just find that they have a human size whole in them regarding human nature. They might work for a different sentient species that isn't as broken as humans. Certainly that type of society populated with the proper people could work, just like many other political systems (I think dogmush said something similar earlier). Humans seem to have an inherent self destruct feature. Hence the reason you are probably attracted to stoicism, it helps put boundaries on behavior and contextualizes the ups and downs of life in a detached manner. I've read a lot of stoicism and believe as a philosophy it contains much truth. The Christian pursuit of self examination and earthly sanctification is a very stoical lifestyle. The purported oldest writing in the bible, the book of Job, advocates for a very stoic outlook for our time on earth, yet also provides hope. It avoids the traps of fatalism and nihilism while still dealing with the very real potential horrors we may face in life.

Certainly there is common ground for discussion on these issues without being insulting or condescending. As a lifelong internet arguer that can be difficult for me  :P  Sussing out what is actually good, true and beautiful and how to maximize their expression in society I think should be the goal for society/civilization.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

Pb

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #121 on: September 10, 2022, 10:15:56 AM »

Adultery was illegal? When was that?

I'm not sure divorce should be as easy as it has become, especially when children are involved.

I just looked it up, adultery is actually still illegal in a sizable minority of the country, including my own state:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery_laws#United_States

I agree with this- I think marriage laws should be altered to make marriage a real, legal contract with duties of the parties spelled out, and legal consequences of breaking the marriage contract (such as adultery, abandonment etc.) 

No fault divorce was a mistake.  Making adultery irrelevant in divorce proceedings is obscene.  This one of the reasons for the decline of marriage.  Large numbers of men have no wish to be married to a woman who can divorce them for no reason, steal half their belongings, their house, and take their kids, and force them to pay monthly ("child support") for the privilege of being victimized.

Ben

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Re: Not with the Majority? EXTREMIST!
« Reply #122 on: September 21, 2022, 12:57:57 PM »

"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."
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