Author Topic: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson  (Read 1805 times)

Pb

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2022, 04:07:17 PM »
" I also would have been authorized to use deadly force on a sailor if I as a sentry found one in the act of deliberately firing the ship."

Slightly different situation in that use of deadly force to prevent or stop a crime like that is warranted.

As a punishment after the fact when there were no deaths involved? No.

Why is trying to kill people with fire and failing less evil than trying to kill people with fire and being successful?

Attempted murder should be punished the same as murder- with death.  The distinction doesn't make sense.

HankB

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2022, 05:17:34 PM »
Bringing this thread up from the ashes.

Not Guilty

Seaman Timmy is having a good day. After reading what the Navy had I am wondering how this even went to trial. Just more of the Navy trying their best to pin the blame as low on the chain of command as possible.

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/investigations/fate-of-accused-arsonist-in-the-uss-bonhomme-richard-fire-now-in-hands-of-military-judge/509-adecaaee-5364-4ca2-aedd-ce1cf27fe5fc

bob
Just from reading the cbs8 story, the case does seem weak. The real investigation should be focused on why a small fire was allowed to grow and completely destroy a billion dollar plus warship. Nothing that floats is completely invulnerable but warships are supposed to survive after taking a good amount of actual combat damage. If a zippo and a bucket of accelerant (?) will take out an amphibious assault ship, how will it fare if, say, it takes a couple of hits from Chinese missiles and shells? Even small ones?
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230RN

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2022, 08:23:26 PM »
From BobR's link:

"Defense attorneys also spent time debunking what they felt was a cursory and deficient investigation by the ATF."

No comment necessary or advisable.

What is the "Lower V"on a ship?

HankB, I gathered that much of the fire detection and suppression systems were inactivated for repairs and upgrades.

Sounds like one of those Western movie "He was in town when the bank was robbed, so he musta done it, let's string him up now!" scenarios.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2022, 09:21:45 PM »
From BobR's link:

"Defense attorneys also spent time debunking what they felt was a cursory and deficient investigation by the ATF."

No comment necessary or advisable.

What is the "Lower V"on a ship?

HankB, I gathered that much of the fire detection and suppression systems were inactivated for repairs and upgrades.

Sounds like one of those Western movie "He was in town when the bank was robbed, so he musta done it, let's string him up now!" scenarios.

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K Frame

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2022, 07:54:50 AM »
Just from reading the cbs8 story, the case does seem weak. The real investigation should be focused on why a small fire was allowed to grow and completely destroy a billion dollar plus warship. Nothing that floats is completely invulnerable but warships are supposed to survive after taking a good amount of actual combat damage. If a zippo and a bucket of accelerant (?) will take out an amphibious assault ship, how will it fare if, say, it takes a couple of hits from Chinese missiles and shells? Even small ones?


Yeah, that was a weak case, all right. And the fact that they were pursuing another suspect with equal MMO, then left off him, even with some compelling evidence? Not a good look at all.


As for the ship not surviving the fire... a ship undergoing reconstruction at a dock is a FAR different thing than a ship at sea, if for no other reason than its personnel, who are trained to handle fires, battle damage, etc., aren't there to do anything about it. At dock side the people who are assigned to protect it against fire are probably general firefighters, not really trained in what it takes to fight fires aboard a ship, especially once that's undergoing extensive rehabilitation and is likely packed with flammable materials not related to its role as a fighting ship.

From a few other articles I've read about this, it would seem that no one wanted to take authority (feeling that they didn't have the authority to do so) to lead the fire response. What that tells me is that, at least ashore and at port, the Navy doesn't value initiatitive, it focuses on rote, formualic adherence to Naval command structure even in the face of a catastrophe.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

HankB

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2022, 09:26:43 AM »
. . . From a few other articles I've read about this, it would seem that no one wanted to take authority (feeling that they didn't have the authority to do so) to lead the fire response. What that tells me is that, at least ashore and at port, the Navy doesn't value initiatitive, it focuses on rote, formualic adherence to Naval command structure even in the face of a catastrophe.
From what I've read, I think you're right.

In pretty much the same vein, my take is that when people are subjected to micromanagement from above - with negative consequences if they don't wait for specific instructions even if they do the right thing - they're not likely to do anything on their own initiative. I've heard stories of soldiers in hostile territory getting in trouble for returning fire without orders. And in a less serious situation, I saw this "micromanagement from above" policy creeping in during my employment with a big Fortune 500 company - ironically, during a time when the official line was "employee empowerment" which supposedly meant having decisions made at the lowest practical level.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

BobR

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2022, 02:27:28 PM »
While we know the ATF is incompetent so are a few others, the ones most likely doing all of the investigative work. According to a friend (Retired Navy CPO) who went on the do quite a few years with the Virginia Beach Police Department and who had dealings with NIS (Not Interested, Sorry) and NCIS (No Crime is Solved), both of those agencies are pretty much worthless.

bob

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2022, 07:39:05 PM »

Yeah, that was a weak case, all right. And the fact that they were pursuing another suspect with equal MMO, then left off him, even with some compelling evidence? Not a good look at all.


As for the ship not surviving the fire... a ship undergoing reconstruction at a dock is a FAR different thing than a ship at sea, if for no other reason than its personnel, who are trained to handle fires, battle damage, etc., aren't there to do anything about it. At dock side the people who are assigned to protect it against fire are probably general firefighters, not really trained in what it takes to fight fires aboard a ship, especially once that's undergoing extensive rehabilitation and is likely packed with flammable materials not related to its role as a fighting ship.

From a few other articles I've read about this, it would seem that no one wanted to take authority (feeling that they didn't have the authority to do so) to lead the fire response. What that tells me is that, at least ashore and at port, the Navy doesn't value initiatitive, it focuses on rote, formualic adherence to Naval command structure even in the face of a catastrophe.

The ship does have personnel there at all times, a duty section at least that lives on board or on a barge next door. I did a year in Newport News drydock. Every four days I slept on the barge even though my real home was a one mile walk away. First thing that has to be manned is the duty section fire party. That's only 20 or so folks. What should have happened Is they should have been doing everything they could while the Command Duty Officer had the duty section rounding up more people and equipment. Then recall the rest of the crew. No idea how we got to the civvie fire department watch it burn phase. But yeah a fire in a shipyard is a mess, especially if your sailors are not technical types that study firefighting. A big first task is where is the firemain? Often the regular main will be apart for maintenance and you have to understand where the temp mains are. I am glad we never had a major fire in the yards. Plenty of little ones, and that was what this one was at first. We got lucky.

As for formulaic adherence to command structure, well some of the navy still likes initiative. I had several episodes related to firefighting where people wanted to talk to me later. Apparently they don't like you relocating commissioned officers even if they are being ineffective and standing in front of the equipment you need.  [popcorn]

NCIS? I still don't know if this sailor had some culpability just that he got off. Doesn't matter, the real failures happened long before the fire in the importance the command placed on fire inspections and training. Ship has a Fire Marshal at all times and an XO and CO specifically charged with making sure it doesn't burn to the waterline. And the reponse afterwards. All I know is I was once a junior sailor and NCIS tried really hard to get me to confess to something I didn't do. They are all bad cops. 
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K Frame

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2022, 08:21:58 PM »
OK, that's good information, and I didn't realize that they kept duty parties of the ship's crew there during reconstruction/refit/rehab (can't remember how extensive it was) -- I thought it was just specific technical personnel who were required to assist in the ongoing work.

But it really makes me wonder just where the response broke down, why the response broke down, and how the Navy intends to put lessons learned to use in making sure something like this doesn't happy again.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

French G.

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2022, 09:40:34 PM »
We really didn't do lessons learned from any of the major casualties in my time. Navy has its own unique brand of the Army's CRS syndrome. I spent a ton of time at the Farrier fire school named for the man you see run into the fire on the Forrestal and never come back. Back when chiefs had balls instead of corrupt incestuous secret societies. Beyond that the average sailor knows zero about the Stark, Belknap, George Washington hangar fire, Cole, Fitzgerald, etc. 99% of officers would be shocked that in WWII paint was meticulously chipped and kept to one coat because it burned like hell. We paint spaces every six month so they pass inspection(look pretty). After four uniform changes in a decade we still wear poly blends that melt. The epoxy paint system decks burn with pretty colors and make good shrapnel according to the Cole. But we focus on making sure our online training is up to date and everyone has the correct color rank tab starting today.

I did 4 yard periods in my ten years of sea time. One I lived onboard full time, in the winter and in lovely Portsmouth VA. Another one there I stayed on for duty. The carrier we hot racked on the accommodation barge for duty. Last one I had sold my house so again lived on the barge full time in South Norfolk. Barge sucked so good I usually slept in my office. Winter in the yards is so awesome. Our heat is steam and so are the water heaters. Guess what is taken apart for work? But yeah, never turned over the ship. Give me a choice of the yards or solo rowing to Antarctica I guess I am googling penguin recipes.
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MechAg94

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2022, 09:01:30 PM »
More than 200 sailors moved off aircraft carrier after multiple suicides
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/03/politics/uss-george-washington-sailors/index.html

Intersting that you say that about yard work.  I saw an extended article about this issue a few months back.  Low ranking enlisted sailors were forced to live about the carrier even though work was going on very near their bunks and they got little or no sleep and little time off ship.  I got the impression crew morale wasn't high on the list for the leadership until the suicides attracted attention.  One former sailor they quoted said he spent 2 years sitting on a bucket acting as a fire watch until he was able to get out.  I realize some jobs just suck, but you would think there would be some way to rotate people around. 


On the clothing, most every chemical plant on the Texas Gulf coast requires fire retardant clothing which is generally treated cotton (since the 1990's or early 2000's).  Underclothes are supposed to be cotton or other non-melty clothing. 

Hundreds of Sailors Being Moved Off Carrier After Surge of Suicides, Captain Tells Crew
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/04/29/hundreds-of-sailors-being-moved-off-carrier-after-surge-of-suicides-captain-tells-crew.html
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MechAg94

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2022, 06:55:54 PM »
Once again, the Navy has a new uniform for sailors
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-new-uniform-coveralls/?utm_term=Task%26Purpose_Today_10.03.22&utm_campaign=Task%20%26%20Purpose_TPToday_Actives_Dynamic&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email

Quote
The flame-resistant outfit is “designed for various working conditions and environments—surface ships, submarines and flight decks,” according to the Navy. “It’s designed to be free of Foreign Object Debris (FOD), and can be worn with flight deck jerseys. There will no longer be a need for commands to buy separate flight deck pants.”

The 2-POC will be issued without charge, will be the standard uniform worn on and off base, and will be issued in blue for junior sailors and khaki for the senior enlisted and officers beginning by the end of 2022.

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

WLJ

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Re: Bonhomme Richard ship fire was arson
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2022, 07:11:37 PM »
At least it's suppose to be flame-resistant this time but please tell me it's not made in China
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