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Author Topic: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon  (Read 943 times)

PEfarmer

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2022, 11:12:28 AM »

On the surface, I'd tend to agree. But, if your sheriff won't participate in licensing, you'd have no avenue to purchase a firearm. This may be the most gun owner favorable approach.

Ben

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2022, 01:49:45 PM »

On the surface, I'd tend to agree. But, if your sheriff won't participate in licensing, you'd have no avenue to purchase a firearm. This may be the most gun owner favorable approach.

I get that, and as usual, wasn't clear in my post. I just want them to make a statement against the most egregious part of the measure, but understand their hands are tied on circumvention. The mag ban is easier for them to ignore. Though you still have to look over your shoulder in a "non-compliance" county and hope state LE doesn't toss you in the klink.
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2022, 02:06:48 AM »

It's so all the new Boise residents know what to put on the Oregon mail in ballots they still get.

Interestingly enough, a coworker and I were talking today, and she told me that a friend of hers moved to Idaho a number of years ago, reported to the state he was no longer a resident, that he was now an Idaho resident.

He got an Oregon ballot.  Not because it was forwarded.  It was mailed directly to his Idaho address.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2022, 03:18:13 PM »

He got an Oregon ballot.  Not because it was forwarded.  It was mailed directly to his Idaho address.

Is he dead?
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Ben

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2022, 07:45:53 AM »

It appears that because this passed with such a short start date (on purpose?) that neither the state nor private entities that are needed to implement it are anywhere near ready, and the default for that is to freeze gun sales until the system is in place.

That should definitely be lawsuit material, but given it's in the 9th circuit, even if a judge rules that a lawsuit has merit, they'll probably also allow implementation (and a freeze) to go forward until the lawsuit is heard, versus a stay on moving forward with the licensing.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hunters-fear-end-firearm-sales-oregon-creates-gun-permit-system

Tangent: Note the stance of the girl with the AR.  :laugh:
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WLJ

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2022, 08:19:53 AM »

And gun sales are way up with people trying to beat the deadline

Quote
According to the OSP, before Election Day they were seeing about 850 background check requests on firearm transfers every day. Since November 8th, however, the average has been 4,092 per day; a staggering increase of 382% that has also unfortunately led to a backlog in processing those requests that’s even higher than during the height of the Great Gun Run of 2020.

Blue state ballot measure leads to red-hot gun sales
https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2022/11/17/blue-state-ballot-measure-leads-to-red-hot-gun-sales-n64501
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cordex

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2022, 08:49:08 AM »

Tangent: Note the stance of the girl with the AR.  :laugh:
Ugh, she shoots like a politician.

Ben

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2022, 08:52:32 AM »

Ugh, she shoots like a politician.

 :rofl:
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MillCreek

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2022, 08:54:30 AM »

And with the election results, Democrats in the Washington legislature are going to dust off the assault weapon ban again to see if they can pass it.
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Ben

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2022, 09:01:16 AM »

And gun sales are way up with people trying to beat the deadline
 
Blue state ballot measure leads to red-hot gun sales
https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2022/11/17/blue-state-ballot-measure-leads-to-red-hot-gun-sales-n64501

And that's not doing those people any good, because the implementation date is a few weeks away, and it's taking 30+ days to get state permission to get your gun under the current system. If you don't have it by 10DEC or whenever, you can't get your gun until you get a license. There's gonna be a ton of pissed off people who bought a gun that they can't have. I wonder how many of them didn't bother to vote?
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cordex

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2022, 09:34:15 AM »

There's gonna be a ton of pissed off people who bought a gun that they can't have. I wonder how many of them didn't bother to vote?

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2022, 05:19:56 PM »

And with the election results, Democrats in the Washington legislature are going to dust off the assault weapon ban again to see if they can pass it.

Dude, the results scream "audit me!!!"

Four measures, two are clearly popular and got 60% and 75% approval, approximately.

Then the socialized medicine and gun control measures each barely pass with 50.5%.

That's just what happens when you have mail-in-ballot election fraud.

There's currently 13,000+ people all waiting for "instant" background checks.  OSP is still dragging out my September 16th transfer even though they were given everything they demanded three *expletive deleted*ing weeks ago.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2022, 05:21:38 PM »

And that's not doing those people any good, because the implementation date is a few weeks away, and it's taking 30+ days to get state permission to get your gun under the current system. If you don't have it by 10DEC or whenever, you can't get your gun until you get a license. There's gonna be a ton of pissed off people who bought a gun that they can't have. I wonder how many of them didn't bother to vote?

 :O

Every living body in the state (and some outside it) are mailed ballots.  Fill out ballot, put ballot in envelope, put envelope in mail box.  For some reason I really doubt laziness on the part of conservatives is the problem here.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2022, 05:25:56 PM »

:O

Every living body in the state (and some outside it) are mailed ballots.  Fill out ballot, put ballot in envelope, put envelope in mail box.  For some reason I really doubt laziness on the part of conservatives is the problem here.


It's not just conservatives that buy guns.
I do not own a boat. I still have all my guns, cuz this is America.

cordex

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2022, 05:33:22 PM »

For some reason I really doubt laziness on the part of conservatives is the problem here.
I thought you didn't vote because of some sort of moral objection to giving legitimacy to the something something. 

Ben

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2022, 05:38:23 PM »

For some reason I really doubt laziness on the part of conservatives is the problem here.

Laziness is not the only potential reason not to vote. Many people who are conservatives in supermajority liberal states (or vice versa) don't vote not out of laziness, but from a "what's the point?" perspective. Many times "what's the point" is valid, if it's something that gets 80% of a vote opposite of what they would vote for, but 114 is a perfect example of "every vote counts". Especially if you're battling potential election fraud.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2022, 05:57:04 PM »

I thought you didn't vote because of some sort of moral objection to giving legitimacy to the something something.

I wanted to make the fraudsters work one ballot harder.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2022, 05:59:11 PM »

Laziness is not the only potential reason not to vote. Many people who are conservatives in supermajority liberal states (or vice versa) don't vote not out of laziness, but from a "what's the point?" perspective. Many times "what's the point" is valid, if it's something that gets 80% of a vote opposite of what they would vote for, but 114 is a perfect example of "every vote counts". Especially if you're battling potential election fraud.

Touche.  Fair point on apathy losses.

Ben

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2022, 06:56:39 PM »

The apathy is easy for me to understand, having been a conservative in California. While a few of the people I voted for became President, it had nothing to do with my vote given it was never ever close for the Electoral College.

Other than that, I was in Devon Nunes' district for one voting cycle maybe ten years ago and voted for him and he won. Before that? Not a single person or thing that I voted for won in CA except for Prop 187 (to rein in illegal immigration, and it got ~60% of the vote). That was in 1994. One month after it passed, Calif judges put the kibosh on it. So much for votes counting and the people speaking. So yeah, I understand apathy.  =(
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cordex

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2022, 08:52:17 PM »

I wanted to make the fraudsters work one ballot harder.
I respect that.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2022, 09:27:05 PM »

When is the big protest march at the state capital?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

BobR

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2022, 01:08:49 PM »

This was posted on the book of faces by a friend of mine that lives in Polk County, OR

Quote

A message from Sheriff Mark Garton regarding measure 114

I have received many emails and phone calls regarding measure 114 and what the impacts of its passage will be.  First, let me say there are still more questions that simply don’t have answers yet, which I totally understand can cause uncertainty and angst for some, including myself.   Since the passage of this measure, I have been talking with Sheriff’s from across the state through the Oregon State Sheriffs’ Association to help address the complexities of this measure and to help get clarity on key constitutional issues.  OSSA recently made the following letter public, which does provide some information as to where we are at in terms of process going forward. 
"The Oregon State Sheriffs’ Association (OSSA) has been receiving a number of inquiries about how and when Measure 114 will be implemented. OSSA understands that Oregonians have strong opinions on this measure, and many who believe that it is a violation of their Second Amendment rights. Any violation of the constitution will ultimately be decided by the judicial branch of government, and OSSA is confident that there will be legal challenges to the measure to test whether or not this measure is constitutional. Any legal challenge could potentially result in the measure being stayed (suspended or a delayed implementation) by a court, but that is not a certainty.

Because the measure prevents anyone from purchasing a firearm without a permit, waiting for a court stay of the measure puts Oregonians at risk of not being able to purchase any firearms at all after the measure takes effect. In light of that, while the legal challenges work their way through the system, OSSA will work with the Oregon State Police and the Oregon Association of Chiefs of Police to implement a permit system as soon as possible.
 
OSSA was not consulted when this measure was crafted and completely understands the uncertainty caused by this measure, however the measure was passed by a majority of Oregonians. Until such time as all or part of the measure is stayed or found unconstitutional by a court, the measure is the law in Oregon.

OSSA did provide a cost analysis to implement this program prior to the election. OSSA stands behind this cost analysis and is confident this program as structured will cost local governments more than the fee generates. Creating and maintaining the permit process will require local law enforcement agencies to shift the already limited law enforcement resources to this newly enacted measure/program.
There are many unanswered questions about the measure that will have to be determined by the courts and other State Elected Officials/agencies.

Below is what we know so far.

*The measure will take effect on December 8th, 2022.
 
*As of the date the measure goes into effect we believe that all firearms sales by dealers, at gun shows and most private transfers (other than to a close relative) in Oregon will immediately stop.

*Firearms purchases (that have not been completed prior to December 8, 2022) will most likely not be completed at all until the purchaser obtains a permit-to-purchase because the Oregon State Police will stop processing the required background checks if there is no permit.

*In order to get a permit, a person must pay a $65 fee and meet several requirements, including having proof of completion of any law enforcement firearms training course or class that is offered for security guards, investigators, reserve or other law enforcement officers, or from a trainer certified by a law enforcement agency.

*Every Sheriff’s Office and local police department must set up a system to issue these permits. The revenue generated by the permits ($65 for each permit) will not come close to fully funding the required processes. In most law enforcement agencies, there is no personnel or money to fund this required program. This will result in other public safety resources being reduced to cover the costs of implementing a new permit program.

*After the effective date of this measure, it will be a crime (Class A misdemeanor) to manufacture, sell, possess, transfer or use a large magazine that holds over ten rounds, with some narrow exceptions for licensed gun dealers and manufacturers.

*A person charged with the crime of possession of a large capacity magazine can raise an affirmative defense if they can prove they owned the large capacity magazine before the measure took effect and the magazine was either on property owned by the person, or on the premises of a licensed gun dealer, or they were using the magazine at a public or private shooting range to the extent permitted under state law, while engaged in a firearms competition or exhibition, or while transporting the magazine to one of the excepted locations if the magazine is locked in a separate container from the gun.

*Having an Oregon concealed handgun license (CHL) does not excuse a person from obtaining a permit-to-purchase, although the training required to obtain a CHL may satisfy some of the training requirements needed to get a permit.
 
*Having a concealed handgun license does not exempt a person from the ban on large-capacity magazines. Even after obtaining a permit-to-purchase, a person wishing to buy a firearm will be required to go through another background check at the time of purchase to get an approval from the Oregon State Police for the transfer.

*The measure also requires the Oregon State Police to create and maintain a database (registry) of all firearms sales once the measure takes effect. A person will stay on that registry until they provide proof they transferred the firearm to another permit holder and the information to have the registry updated to reflect the new ownership.
OSSA asks for patience as OSSA works collaboratively with other law enforcement organizations to implement the permit process. While this is a huge undertaking for Oregon law enforcement which is already under-resourced, OSSA will work diligently to implement this complex measure."

I agree with the statements from OSSA.  I will add that I feel this measure is unconstitutional, based on other court rulings within the 9th Circuit Court of appeals.  While the office of Sheriff can not deem a law unconstitutional on their own, I feel confident that this measure will be challenged within the judicial branch and we will likely receive a stay. 

This Sheriff’s Office won’t focus on enforcing this law in any fashion until at which time it has been reviewed by a court.   I want to assure you that your deputies are a talented and dedicated group of individuals that already have a challenging profession.  They are generally going from one call to another during their shift and it leaves very little time for additional enforcement priorities, especially as it pertains to what seems to be an unconstitutional measure.  There is a legal process for challenging these types of things and those avenues are being used now and I will actively work towards getting clarity and hopefully, more answers for everyone.   I know many people are upset about the passage of this measure, but I ask that you allow some time for the process to play out.   I would prefer to have all the answers to share with you now, but in reality, there are questions that just don’t have answers quite yet.

Since we went to a FFL background check in NV for FTF deals our Sheriffs came out with essentially the same statement,  it is unconstitutional and they would not enforce the law. It is a toss up when you buy private party on whether the seller wants t go the FFL route. I think it is more common in Washoe (Reno) and Clark (Las Vegas) counties that the other counties. At least we don't have all of the other crap crammed in the bill from OR.

bob

dogmush

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2022, 02:31:42 PM »

While I understand that the Sheriff feels he's between a rock and a hard place, I take issue with this part:

Quote
OSSA was not consulted when this measure was crafted and completely understands the uncertainty caused by this measure, however the measure was passed by a majority of Oregonians. Until such time as all or part of the measure is stayed or found unconstitutional by a court, the measure is the law in Oregon.

That's a cop out.  The majority of people should not get to abridge the rights of people, even for as long as it takes the courts to play out.  If something is blatantly unconstitutional, it should not be enforced, and people trying to enforce it should be stopped.  Since this measure effectively stopped the 2A in Oregon, we can skip all the mealy mouthed "It's not an infringement yet" arguments.  On Dec 9th you can't buy a firearm in Oregon.

What the Sheriff's Association should have said, is "This is a blatant blockage of an enumerated right, and we will not enforce any part of it until, at minimum, a court trims it down and affirms constitutionality.  Furthermore, any person, local state or federal LEO that attempts to arrest or detain someone based on this law until it is affirmed as constitutional, will be arrested for false imprisonment and held until the legal process plays out."

You don't ship the people to Siberia first, and then see how the appeals play out.

Ben

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2022, 02:50:50 PM »

Quote
A person charged with the crime of possession of a large capacity magazine can raise an affirmative defense if they can prove they owned the large capacity magazine before the measure took effect

Just curious - how many of you guys have receipts or other proofs of purchase for your magazines?

I bought some of mine online and suppose  I could look up the order on sites where I have an account, but then how do I prove the mag in my hand is one I purchased from a store before a specified date, and not another, identical mag? Not to mention private sales.
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dogmush

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Re: Stop Prop 114 - Oregon
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2022, 02:55:55 PM »

^^ I think that's kinda the point.
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