Why the British army used heavy artillery to kill thousands of Londoners

[MechAg94]

Why the British army used heavy artillery to kill thousands of Londoners in the early 1940s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AHWlN8LzFo

Video about the British use of artillery to defend London against German bombers in WWII.  He is saying anti-aircraft shells with either faulty detonator timers or detonator timers that were improperly set ended up coming back down and causing damage and deaths. 

I hadn't heard about this before.  Have any of you heard this before?  It makes some sense, but I wonder if he is exaggerating the damage it caused? 

[WLJ]

The description to the video

Between 1940 and 1944, tens of thousands of people living in London and other British cities were killed by artillery shells fired by their own army, in an effort to prevent them fleeing their homes.

He's saying they deliberately shelled British citizens in addition to the AA falling back to earth

[K Frame]

what goes up must come down. American sailors in the Pacific during WW II were injured and killed by friendly anti aircraft fire from other ships -- some direct hits, some by shrapnel, and some by dud shells that came back down.

I'm sure the same thing happened in London during WW II. Don't know if the numbers are near what he claims, though.

But, realistically, what's the alternative?

[K Frame]

The description to the video

He's saying they deliberately shelled British citizens 

Wait.... what?

No. Just *expletive deleted*ing no.

The British government WANTED people the hell out of target areas if they had a place to go and if they weren't needed in those areas.

[WLJ]

what goes up must come down. American sailors in the Pacific during WW II were injured and killed by friendly anti aircraft fire from other ships -- some direct hits, some by shrapnel, and some by dud shells that came back down.

I'm sure the same thing happened in London during WW II. Don't know if the numbers are near what he claims, though.

But, realistically, what's the alternative?

I've often had questions and done a little searching about just was it like to be on the ground in Germany under those massive bomber streams with all the AA and machine gun fire. Not found much.

[WLJ]

what goes up must come down. American sailors in the Pacific during WW II were injured and killed by friendly anti aircraft fire from other ships -- some direct hits, some by shrapnel, and some by dud shells that came back down.

In the Big E I remember reading the Enterprise having a (VT fused IIRC) 5 inch explode over her deck that had been fired by one of the ships in her screen. Been a while since I've read the book but IIRC a number of crew were killed and injured and some damage done to the ship. Who ever fired it was probably totally target fixated on a Japanese plane.

[Perd Hapley]

I've often had questions and done a little searching about just was it like to be on the ground in Germany under those massive bomber streams with all the AA and machine gun fire. Not found much.

No one lived to tell the tale?

[WLJ]

Actually it was damage from two "friendly" 5 inch shells on CV-6 that day. One exploded over a pair of 40mm gun mounts, the other off the port bow.
Description of the hits with diagrams of the damage.

Damage Report: 18-20 March 1945
http://www.cv6.org/ship/damage/kyushu_1.htm

[MechAg94]

The description to the video

He's saying they deliberately shelled British citizens in addition to the AA falling back to earth

I listened on my phone on the way in to work.  I didn't hear him say that on the video. 


Drachinifel mentioned VT fuse shells falling back down being a danger.  I think it was a video talking about Admiral Lee.  Supposedly he recommended a change to have them explode on a timer if they didn't go off on proximity.  With the shear volume of AA fire the US ships were throwing up, I am not surprised at that being an issue. 

[WLJ]

I listened on my phone on the way in to work.  I didn't hear him say that on the video. 

Yeah he doesn't come right out and say it but he kind of implies it in an off hand way but side steps it. He's the one who wrote the description. Could be Scotty Kilmer type click bait

[WLJ]

Drachinifel mentioned VT fuse shells falling back down being a danger.  I think it was a video talking about Admiral Lee.  Supposedly he recommended a change to have them explode on a timer if they didn't go off on proximity.  With the shear volume of AA fire the US ships were throwing up, I am not surprised at that being an issue.

There was a fear some would land in Japanese territory and the Japanese find them and figure out why their planes are suddenly exploding in greater numbers, figure out some sort of countermeasure, and even develop their own. 

[MechAg94]

Yeah he doesn't come right out and say it but he kind of implies it in an off hand way but side steps it. He's the one who wrote the description. Could be Scotty Kilmer type click bait

Possible.  Looking at the titles for the rest of his videos, he appears to be a bit opinionated.   

[K Frame]

I've often had questions and done a little searching about just was it like to be on the ground in Germany under those massive bomber streams with all the AA and machine gun fire. Not found much.

It was unpleasant as hell. You spend time alternately terrified that you're going to die in a flash and then incredible relief that the bombing is either moving away from you or has ended. At least that raid has.

Then fatigue sets in after you're subjected to days, weeks, or months of bombing attacks. The terror slowly becomes a sense of resignation, but the resignation never fully replaces the terror. Eventually you're not afraid you're going to die, you become sure of it.

During the attacks you're either hiding in basements or shelters, but nothing keeps out the sounds or vibrations, either of the bombing or the response from the ground.

And you'll never forget seeing the city in which you're growing up go from a medieval showpiece to a cratered landscape littered with rubble and even, sometimes, bodies.

Even years, decades, after the war ends you cringe when you hear airplanes or loud noises. A car backfiring can cause you to jump out of your skin. Fireworks shows aren't special at all. The dreams you had regularly for years after the war finally begin to fade, but can come back unbidden.

And for the rest of your life you get a queasy feeling in the pit of your stomach when you see pictures of Hitler or his inner circle.


All of that is paraphrased from conversations I had over many years with the parents of one of my best friends, John. John's first generation American. Both of his parents were born in the Germany and grew up there through the rise of the Nazis and the devastation of World War II.

Willy grew up in a smaller town outside of major population centers, but Barbara grew up in Nuremberg. Both witnessed many raids, and both were still clearly affected by their experiences even when I was talking to them in the 1970s and 1980s. They were kind enough to talk to me at length about their experiences for some of my history classes in college.

[K Frame]

I listened on my phone on the way in to work.  I didn't hear him say that on the video. 


Drachinifel mentioned VT fuse shells falling back down being a danger.  I think it was a video talking about Admiral Lee.  Supposedly he recommended a change to have them explode on a timer if they didn't go off on proximity.  With the shear volume of AA fire the US ships were throwing up, I am not surprised at that being an issue. 

When they were first introduced VT shells were shipped ONLY to the Pacific. It was felt that the chances of the enemy recovering a dud were far lower in the Pacific.

They were finally released for use in Europe after some changes were made to the design, but there was still fear that the Germans would find and reverse engineer one. That never happened, but the Germans realized what we had and were working on their own versions up to the end of the war.

The first several uses of VT shells against German infantry formations were absolutely devastating. Good article on the first use of the shells in Germany during the opening stages of the Battle of the Bulge: https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/the-proximity-fuse-how-the-gunners-dream-finally-became-realized/

[WLJ]

It was unpleasant as hell. You spend time alternately terrified that you're going to die in a flash and then incredible relief that the bombing is either moving away from you or has ended. At least that raid has.

Then fatigue sets in after you're subjected to days, weeks, or months of bombing attacks. The terror slowly becomes a sense of resignation, but the resignation never fully replaces the terror. Eventually you're not afraid you're going to die, you become sure of it.

During the attacks you're either hiding in basements or shelters, but nothing keeps out the sounds or vibrations, either of the bombing or the response from the ground.

And you'll never forget seeing the city in which you're growing up go from a medieval showpiece to a cratered landscape littered with rubble and even, sometimes, bodies.

Even years, decades, after the war ends you cringe when you hear airplanes or loud noises. A car backfiring can cause you to jump out of your skin. Fireworks shows aren't special at all. The dreams you had regularly for years after the war finally begin to fade, but can come back unbidden.

And for the rest of your life you get a queasy feeling in the pit of your stomach when you see pictures of Hitler or his inner circle.


All of that is paraphrased from conversations I had over many years with the parents of one of my best friends, John. John's first generation American. Both of his parents were born in the Germany and grew up there through the rise of the Nazis and the devastation of World War II.

Willy grew up in a smaller town outside of major population centers, but Barbara grew up in Nuremberg. Both witnessed many raids, and both were still clearly affected by their experiences even when I was talking to them in the 1970s and 1980s. They were kind enough to talk to me at length about their experiences for some of my history classes in college.

The effects the bombing had on people underneath is written about a lot.

But what isn't written about so much is even if you're not in the bombing zone you got all that AA going up and it and all the machine gun fire from fighters and bombers, not to mention planes, pieces of planes, people, pieces of people  , coming down to earth as the bomber stream passed over head.   People who weren't in the actual bombing zone were often not hiding in bomb shelters and whatnot.

[HankB]

My Dad told me that during a night time Japanese air raid in WWII, he and the rest of the troops who weren't manning AA guns had taken cover in foxholes and slit trenches.

A large piece of shrapnel came through his tent and hit one of the bunks, embedding itself in the dirt below. Anyone still on the bunk would have been killed.

It was a piece of shrapnel from a US AA gun. After that, the foxholes and trenches were dug deeper and improvised overhead cover was added.

[K Frame]

Ah, I misunderstood what you were asking.

I've read stuff that said yes, people were killed on the ground by splinters, falling shells, etc.

But, nothing about how many.

[French G.]

My grandfathers name is on several bureau of standards patents regarding VT shells. Pretty proud of that. Later he was involved in some of the earliest optical character recognition. The way they were doing it led to grocery store scanners. Late career he ended up back with the government and you can thank him for the energy star stickers on appliances. Not sure how I ended up so dumb.

[230RN]

I read (Jablonski's "Airwar?") That Honolulu had some problems with shells and bullets coming down from the Pearl Harbor Sneak Attack.  Some injuries, some damage, and at last one killed.

Whether they were American or Nip bullets and shels was not addressed and is probably indeterminate.

I pity the poor Nazi who was assigned to disassemble a proximity shell to reverse engineer it.  I also pity the dudes assigned to clean up the bloody mess generated by this process.

Terry, 230RN