An electric - truck?

[HankB]

Older Teslas lost about 20% of range due to having to heat the cabin as well as the battery.  Newer Teslas use a heat pump, which is more efficient, so the range lost is less.

Heating efficiency of heat pumps goes down when outdoor temperature decreases - that's why home heatpump installations have resistance coils included for "emergency heat."

It's probably not much of a worry here in central Texas, but I wonder about how a Tesla heater would work in sub-zero temperatures like you get in places like Minnesota or Montana.

The rear windows of most cars have resistance heaters on the glass (don't know about e-vehicles) . . . wonder how much current they draw.

[ConstitutionCowboy]

The batteries are cooled by a radiator.

Which will consume even more energy to increase the circulation of the coolant and up the power to the fan - just like with fuel powered vehicles. I see no advantage to hauling anything around with an electric vehicle - including me. 

I'd like to see a chart that compares the cost per mile of an electric vehicle to the cost per mile of a fuel powered vehicle under similar conditions, to include towing, vehicle weight, passenger capacity, initial cost, maintenance, insurance, etc., etc., etc., over a wide range of different sizes and classes of vehicles.

We already know the time differences in "refueling" electric vehicles compared to refueling gasoline/diesel autos.

As you can see, I'm not sold on electric vehicles.

Woody

[dogmush]

That's a lot of variables and data to collate.  Here's some things to start:

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf

https://www.automotive-fleet.com/10187672/how-to-calculate-ev-vs-ice-vehicle-cost-per-mile

https://optimalcompliance.com/electric-vehicle-vs-ice-running-cost-per-mile-which-is-better/

https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/

There's no one chart that will say "This kind of vehicle is the best for all cases" as that isn't true.  Folks will have to buy the type (ev/ICE) and model (Car/crossover/truck/etc) that fits their needs best.  For a LOT of the drivers in the US, it would be cheaper to switch to an EV when they next get a vehicle, but not everyone.  Also for a lot of folks cost/mile isn't the sole driving factor.

It's worth keeping in mind though that in general an internal combustion engine is a horribly inefficient converter of energy.  It's only because gas and diesel or so energy dense that they are useful at all. 

[Fly320s]

Heating efficiency of heat pumps goes down when outdoor temperature decreases - that's why home heatpump installations have resistance coils included for "emergency heat."

It's probably not much of a worry here in central Texas, but I wonder about how a Tesla heater would work in sub-zero temperatures like you get in places like Minnesota or Montana.

The rear windows of most cars have resistance heaters on the glass (don't know about e-vehicles) . . . wonder how much current they draw.

My home in NH is heated and cooled by a heat pump mini split system.  It makes heat down to -10, but not much.  I've never used the emergency heat function.  On those really cold days, I'll turn on my gas fireplace or pellet stove for additional heat.

We have a Tesla 3.  The heat works great, but is sure does suck down the juice.

[Calumus]

The fast lane truck channel on YouTube has done a few videos on using an electric truck as an actual truck. Let’s just say the results aren’t great range wise. Great towing ability; but the range wouldn’t be workable for most people. A “400+” mile range turns into 90 miles while towing an 8000# camper. It would make a summer camping trip take considerably longer once you include charge times.

[dogmush]

You aren't wrong on the range while towing, indeed we've had these conversations before.  I think your description of "actual truck" and "work for most people " might be a stretch though.  What percentage of 1/2 ton trucks in the US do you suppose pull anything,  much less an 8000 camper?

I agree if you plan to multiple day offroad, tow very much, or haul heavy loads in the bed this is probably not the truck you want. The other 75% of folks will be fine driving to the mall, soccer game or Home Depot.

[charby]

I'm 48, I bet by the time I am 68 internal combustion engines on passenger cars, pickups and motorcycles will be a thing of the past. 20 years from now, 2042.

[Calumus]

You aren't wrong on the range while towing, indeed we've had these conversations before.  I think your description of "actual truck" and "work for most people " might be a stretch though.  What percentage of 1/2 ton trucks in the US do you suppose pull anything,  much less an 8000 camper?

I agree if you plan to multiple day offroad, tow very much, or haul heavy loads in the bed this is probably not the truck you want. The other 75% of folks will be fine driving to the mall, soccer game or Home Depot.

To clarify, when I said most people I was referring to the people who actually do truck things with their trucks. Landscapers, farmers, trades people, off roaders, RVers etc. not the average pick up owner I see around here. Locally, they’re mostly mall crawlers who’s bed never sees anything more than a hockey equipment bag or a set of golf clubs. That, or they’re Brodozers with $80k worth of aftermarket parts on them.

Charby, the official target end date for ice vehicles is 2035. Several states already have guidance that no new gas or diesel vehicles will be allowed to be sold after that. Several countries are even trying to ban them sooner than that. The uk is one of them, and according to one article I read to make it possible for them to go completely electric would require 100% of the world’s current cobalt production. Plus, their little island is only running at a 5% surplus of available power right now vs what they currently need. No way they get enough new power plants up and running in the next 13 years to cover the increased demand.

The situation here is even worse. Aside from a lack of generation potential, at least half of our nation’s grids are a patchwork of repairs slapped one on top of the other for the last 40 years. We also have climate areas where electric just doesn’t make sense. Their idealism is about to run head on into logistics. If there Aren’t enough raw materials to produce them, and not enough power to charge them whenever you want to, mandating them isn’t going to go all that smoothly.

[HankB]

ANOTHER ELECTRIC TRUCK ON THE ROAD - A "HUMMER EV"  It would seem GMC has resurrected the HUMMER brand some years after they killed it off.

Saw this one in the Home Depot parking lot - the guy was really, really struggling to get out of his parking spot, jockeying back and forth, just a couple of feet at a time. I suspect the outward visibility is poor, much as it was with the Hummer H3 when I looked at it while shopping for a new SUV back around 2006, so the driver couldn't see how close he was coming to other vehicles.

It looked pretty big for a pickup. Spoke very briefly to him - he said it had about a 340 mile range, and charging the battery if it was flat would take 10-12 hours. He claimed his was one of only two in the Austin,TX area.

Looked up MSRP - $108,700 base price.    (For that kind of money, it really should have a rear view camera. The way the guy was struggling to maneuver it, I don't think it did.)

[Boomhauer]

ANOTHER ELECTRIC TRUCK ON THE ROAD - A "HUMMER EV"  It would seem GMC has resurrected the HUMMER brand some years after they killed it off.

Saw this one in the Home Depot parking lot - the guy was really, really struggling to get out of his parking spot, jockeying back and forth, just a couple of feet at a time. I suspect the outward visibility is poor, much as it was with the Hummer H3 when I looked at it while shopping for a new SUV back around 2006, so the driver couldn't see how close he was coming to other vehicles.

It looked pretty big for a pickup. Spoke very briefly to him - he said it had about a 340 mile range, and charging the battery if it was flat would take 10-12 hours. He claimed his was one of only two in the Austin,TX area.

Looked up MSRP - $108,700 base price.    (For that kind of money, it really should have a rear view camera. The way the guy was struggling to maneuver it, I don't think it did.)

It has a rear view camera and I’m betting 360 camera as well.

The guy is just a *expletive deleted*ing idiot, much as you’d expect someone with far more money than brains to be. It also will crab walk, and I’m betting there is a mode to set it for the rear axle to steer tighter too like a telehandler does.

[WLJ]

HOA vs Virtue signaler

HOA wants this guy's electric PU out of sight. Problem is, according to him, it won't fit in the garage. While I think the HOA can go pound sand I get the impression the guy just wants everyone to see his "I'm saving the planet" PU.

Weston association wants electric pick up truck gone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDcSrmnLDUo

[HankB]

. . . Problem is, according to him, it won't fit in the garage . . .

HOA . . . virtue signaler . . . classic tale of "When A******s Collide."

I don't have an HOA (I was careful about then when I bought this house!) so I CAN park on my driveway. But considering how much new vehicles cost, I made damn sure each time I bought a new vehicle that it WOULD fit in the garage.

As far as I'm concerned people can buy any damn vehicle their wallet allows. But unless there's a camper shell involved (for, you know, camping) or the person frequently carries large cargo, pickups are a silly choice for a lot of the people driving them.

[zahc]

Guys, you are still pretending that people actually have and use pickup trucks to haul things. 90+% of pickup trucks are used to get groceries at Costco, or just commute to work and take up extra parking space. And maybe occasionally haul a kayak or mountain bike to the trailhead.

90% of the remaining 10% who actually do use their truck for productive work, would be better off with a van. Oddly I haven't seen much in the way of electric vans like an electric Ford Transport or Sprinter. Maybe because those customers really are businesses and are practical and cost sensitive. Where's pickup trucks are basically a vanity product.

[WLJ]

The ones that kill me are the ones with a trailer hitch with a perfect mirror finish on the ball, in other words never used and is just for show, that sticks out a foot from the bumper ready to catch any passing car especially in tight parking garages.

[dogmush]

90% of the remaining 10% who actually do use their truck for productive work, would be better off with a van. Oddly I haven't seen much in the way of electric vans like an electric Ford Transport or Sprinter. Maybe because those customers really are businesses and are practical and cost sensitive. Where's pickup trucks are basically a vanity product.

https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-transit/

https://insideevs.com/news/545291/ford-etransit-sold-out/

https://insideevs.com/news/545291/ford-etransit-sold-out/

I completely agree with the proposition that 90% of half tons are just everyday commuter vehicles that rarely haul though.

[cordex]

Not everyone is wealthy enough to have use-specific vehicles and have to settle for one they can use for multiple purposes.  That multi-purpose vehicle is different depending on need.  We considered some other options, but ultimately decided that for our rural home the truck was the best fit.  The cab is large enough for our family and the truck offers utility that a van or large SUV simply doesn't.  I recognize that a van has advantages as well, and if someone feels like they need a van (when they could almost always get by with a station wagon instead) I don't begrudge them their choice or feel like I've got to preach why they made a bad decision.

My truck does get used for commuting, but also regularly for hauling, and for maintaining 27 acres.  I'm not sure if that satisfies the Vehicular Morality Police or not.  If I had a compact car I'd commute with that, but since I don't I'll use the vehicle I have.

Perhaps I could load firewood, log splitters, and animal carcasses into a van.  Or maybe zahc would lend me his van for that kind of stuff.

Really, what I use my truck most for is transporting large numbers of infant boys to get circumcisions, so I'm sure zahc understands the necessity of that.

[zahc]

My truck does get used for commuting, but also regularly for hauling, and for maintaining 27 acres. 

It sounds like you use a pickup truck where it's actually appropriate. People like you are a small fraction of pickup truck users. Companies like Ford know that a big chunk, probably a majority, of people that buy their trucks use them as vanity vehicles. This explains why they are developing things like electric trucks that don't seem to make sense to people who actually bought a truck to leverage ots strengths. People who actually use their truck practically don't matter.

This has been going on for a long time. The truck companies have continuously removed practical options like rubber floors, simple 4wd designs, and reasonable loading height, in favor of highway ride quality, creature comforts, and whatever looks best in magazine ads. The pickup as a working fleet vehicle has already almost disappeared.

The real reason this has happened is, of course, government policy. Pickup trucks are basically a loophole in federal highway laws. They are exempt from rules due to the "light duty truck" loophole. It may have once made sense to treat light-duty trucks differently than cars when they were actually working vehicles. But naturally automakers realized that they could build more SUVs and light trucks to sidestep the rules. Light trucks are also protected by different tariffs that other vehicles. This has led to stagnation and almost disappearance of domestic cars, with Ford only having the mustang. The minivan market has been destroyed because they have to follow the rules that trucks don't. The government of course knows this is happening and lets it happen because of the unique flavor of incompetence -as-corruption that characterizes late-stage American political and industrial decline. It's quite like some of the market distortions that arose in the FSU before it fell.

[Ben]

My truck does get used for commuting, but also regularly for hauling, and for maintaining 27 acres.  I'm not sure if that satisfies the Vehicular Morality Police or not.  If I had a compact car I'd commute with that, but since I don't I'll use the vehicle I have.

Perhaps I could load firewood, log splitters, and animal carcasses into a van.  Or maybe zahc would lend me his van for that kind of stuff.

Yeah, I don't know why people can't drive whatever they want. Certainly I can see some benefits of the large enclosed area of a van over my truck for hauling some things, and it would certainly save having to tie down some loads.

However, I haul the kinds of stuff Cordex does, plus often longer pieces of lumber. To haul them in a van, I'd have to do so with the back doors open, then secure other stuff in the back so it doesn't blow out. Or else if you get a van, it seems you have a much greater need of a trailer than if you have a truck. Specifically for stuff you can't get in the van, or don't want to put inside the van. I hate dealing with a trailer if I don't have to, and the truck handles a majority of stuff that I would require a trailer for if I had a van. Plus the truck gets 23mpg with the little Ecoboost. I don't know what those big Transit type vans get.

I won't argue that many people get a truck just to say they have one. I make fun of the $80K F150 Platinums as much as the next guy, but again, people can buy what they want.

Really, what I use my truck most for is transporting large numbers of infant boys to get circumcisions, so I'm sure zahc understands the necessity of that.

 

[dogmush]

I have pretty seriously compromised my trucks hauling ability in order to optimize it as an overlanding vehicle. It's also my daily commuter since I sold the Bimmer. I guess I'm a bad person who should have bought a van.

[HankB]

. . . Oddly I haven't seen much in the way of electric vans like an electric Ford Transport or Sprinter. . . .

Rivian has been selling electric vans to Amazon for a while - now that I'm looking, I've noticed several on the roads here during the past couple of weeks.  Big inverted U-shape  red LED taillight around a blue painted cargo door.

The ones that kill me are the ones with a trailer hitch with a perfect mirror finish on the ball, in other words never used and is just for show, that sticks out a foot from the bumper ready to catch any passing car especially in tight parking garages.

Some years back the editor of Machine Design magazine wrote an editorial about the trailer hitch on his vehicle. IIRC he said it was QUITE useful in protecting the back of his vehicle from inattentive tailgaters, and inflicted a lot of damage on any vehicle that rear-ended him while protecting his own pickup. 

[cordex]

It sounds like you use a pickup truck where it's actually appropriate.

I'm beyond joy that my use-case meets your approval.

People like you are a small fraction of pickup truck users.

That may be.  I haven't checked.  I know my neighbors all have bigger trucks than I do and they use the heck out of them (regularly hauling trailers loaded with hay bales and livestock really requires more than an F150).  I still find it hard to believe that zahc-approved users only make up around 1% of the pickup trucks on the road.  Sure, I know there are plenty of people whose truck never sees anything but smooth asphalt and who have never come close to filling the bed, but there are also a lot of people who have even more need of a truck than I do.

I guess if I lived long enough in an urban or tightly-packed suburban area and was disconnected from many of the legitimate uses and users of a truck I might look down on truck owners because it didn't match up with what I personally need on a day-to-day basis.  My job is also in an urban area, so I'm sure there are zahc-like people who see my truck in the lot and get steamed about those stupid people who only own trucks to buy groceries and commute ... even though zahc himself has approved my truck ownership.

Of course, if someone does want to use their truck exclusively for Costco runs ... so what?  Why is that something to get steamed about? 

Before I got a table saw, a lot of projects I probably could have gotten done with a circular saw didn't get done.  Once I had it, it was easier to jump into projects that otherwise weren't getting done.  I've found the same to be true of trucks - having one (like any specialty tool) reduces the friction of accomplishing tasks that such a tool makes easy.

This explains why they are developing things like electric trucks that don't seem to make sense to people who actually bought a truck to leverage ots strengths. People who actually use their truck practically don't matter.

I'm not sure this follows.  There is not a single use-case for trucks.  An electric truck probably doesn't fit the bill for someone who tows a trailer across country, but actually might be a great fit for someone who hauls a lot of stuff locally.  Firewood delivery comes to mind.  An electric car might not be the best choice for a long road trip either, but might be outstanding for someone to commute with.

Not all users are going to have the same needs, nor do I feel the need to police what vehicle someone thinks they need.

[zahc]

Not all users are going to have the same needs, nor do I feel the need to police what vehicle someone thinks they need.

Awesome, so you basically agree with me on all points.

This thread started out with everyone questioning the range and utility of electric pickup trucks. I.e. "policing what vehicle they think someone needs". I pointed out most pickup trucks are sold to people who don't use them for hauling, which explains why companies like Ford are promoting them despite them being superficially at odds with the point of a truck. This seems to have triggered the truck-religion adherents for some reason but hopefully by now they figured out we are saying exactly the same things.

[cordex]

Unless I am greatly misunderstanding you, I don’t think we are saying anything like the same thing.

I don’t think an electric truck suits every need, but neither do I think can’t fit someone’s needs. Might even work for me if the price was right. Regardless, questioning whether a given vehicle suits one’s own needs is very different from the “no one needs a truck, and even the people who do should get a van instead!” routine you were doing. You do understand the difference between saying “that doesn’t work for me” and “no one needs that”, don’t you?

And again, someone might need a truck to do truck things and still be a good fit for the limitations of an electric one. Limited range isn’t at odds with the purpose of a truck.

[charby]

Isn't a 1/2 ton van basically a truck with a van body?

[charby]

Charby, the official target end date for ice vehicles is 2035. Several states already have guidance that no new gas or diesel vehicles will be allowed to be sold after that. Several countries are even trying to ban them sooner than that. The uk is one of them, and according to one article I read to make it possible for them to go completely electric would require 100% of the world’s current cobalt production. Plus, their little island is only running at a 5% surplus of available power right now vs what they currently need. No way they get enough new power plants up and running in the next 13 years to cover the increased demand.

The situation here is even worse. Aside from a lack of generation potential, at least half of our nation’s grids are a patchwork of repairs slapped one on top of the other for the last 40 years. We also have climate areas where electric just doesn’t make sense. Their idealism is about to run head on into logistics. If there Aren’t enough raw materials to produce them, and not enough power to charge them whenever you want to, mandating them isn’t going to go all that smoothly.

Locally here, Alliant energy has been replacing and upgrading the local grid, so something is going one. An electrician I know told me that a lot of new construction is getting a 50 amp outlet for each parking spot in the garage for future electric vehicles.

The way we drive is going to change, one oil is going to keep getting more and more expensive, just how it is, tons of real financial articles on this. Internal combustion is just going to be phased out due to cost of operation. You're probably not going to take your electric car/truck across the country, but you are going drive to a train station or bus terminal and begin your journey via a mass transportation and rent an electric vehicle at your destination. There will be another migration of either jobs to the smaller towns or people are going to move even more so to urban areas.

General question, If gas goes to $10-20 a gallon are you still going to be driving the miles as you do now?