Author Topic: Libertarian Party sign up  (Read 29749 times)

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2007, 02:47:31 PM »
Uh, Riley, what world do you live in?  Do you really think once the word got out that this company was selling meat, people would still buy it?  The media would have a field day.

I'd also like to know in what alternate universe people in private business, like a meat company, are so evil that they'd sell tainted meat, to millions of people, knowingly, but people in government and virtuous and benevolent.  There is only one species of human.  Entering the public sector does not bestow virtue and honor upon a person, just as working for Topps meant doesn't make someone evil.

Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2007, 02:54:58 PM »
Uh, dasmi, by the time the 'word got out', 1,000,0000 people had eaten the tainted meat.  This country devours one million animals per day.  There was no oversight on the meat company, who kept pumping it out until the truth became irrefutable. Nobody was responsible for oversight; that's the point.  Everybody was living in their happy go lucky 'me first' libertarian utopia-until the problem became a threat to them.

Quote
I'd also like to know in what alternate universe people in private business, like a meat company, are so evil that they'd sell tainted meat, to millions of people, knowingly, but people in government and virtuous and benevolent.  There is only one species of human.  Entering the public sector does not bestow virtue and honor upon a person, just as working for Topps meant doesn't make someone evil.

Uh, this just happened.  Topps Meat Co did in fact keep pumping out tainted meat until the USDA shut them down.  Industry doesn't have to be 'evil' to do harm.  It can simply be greedy, or what you call 'profit driven' to slack on inspections, safe handling, etc. 

Look at the way many industries operate today.  Skimp on quality control and put the product out there. Fix it in warranty.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2007, 02:58:24 PM »
That's fine that it just happened.  My point was that you seem to think government is virtuous and only has our best interest at heart.  I believe humans can find a way to be safe, clothed, fed, and well defended without all-powerful government. 

Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2007, 03:05:32 PM »
Quote
That's fine that it just happened.  My point was that you seem to think government is virtuous and only has our best interest at heart.  I believe humans can find a way to be safe, clothed, fed, and well defended without all-powerful government.

It has nothing to do with 'virtue'. I don't think government is 'virtuous'.  I think it's a PITA, but a necessary PITA.  Topps managed to pump out 21.7 million pounds of contaminated meat before the USDA shut them down.  Why didn't they correct the problem themselves? 


RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2007, 03:07:45 PM »
Obviously it boils down to money.  We don't disagree there.  We don't disagree that Topps meat is certainly run by morally bankrupt people.  I simply believe that the private sector can handle anything better, cheaper, more efficiently, and in a more fair fashion than government can.

brer

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2007, 03:31:10 PM »
Sgt Bob

It is not a question of what the U.S were there to do, it is what they were doing.

Prior to Pearl Harbor, A volunteer force of american pilots were waging warfare on the japanese military.  This falls under the initiation of force that the libertarians talk about.  We drew first blood, not them.


Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2007, 03:52:12 PM »
Obviously it boils down to money.  We don't disagree there.  We don't disagree that Topps meat is certainly run by morally bankrupt people.  I simply believe that the private sector can handle anything better, cheaper, more efficiently, and in a more fair fashion than government can.

That's the point. Libertopia needs some mechanism that can respond quickly enough to guard public health and safety.  From food, to water systems, to pharmaceuticals, there will always be a Topps Meat Co., that, for whatever reason- stupidity, greed, you name it- markets something dangerous, even deadly.  Right now, that stopgap is government-big bloated centralized government.  It got big and bloated little by little, in reponse to some failure or another of the marketplace.

Lawsuits won't do it.  They are way too slow.  And lawyers are out of control now  Can you imagine how litigious a libertarian society would be?  Where there is no threat other than that of lawsuit?

If you want libertarianism take seriously, you're going to have to address issues such as these. 

Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2007, 04:14:04 PM »
It's fall 2007.  America is Libertopia....

Your fanciful anecdotes don't really do much for your case. Far more deaths are attributable to the FDA than would be attributable to its absence. This is actually a fairly well-researched topic.

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Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2007, 04:16:02 PM »
Uh, Riley, what world do you live in?  Do you really think once the word got out that this company was selling meat, people would still buy it?  The media would have a field day.

Exactly. An excellent example is the spinach contaminated with E Coli last year. Grocery stores had isolated and rectified the problem long before the government got off its hump. After the fact, the government ran around like an outraged bull blathering about criminal charges, mainly to cover up their uselessness.

--Len.
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Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2007, 04:31:10 PM »
It's fall 2007.  America is Libertopia....

Your fanciful anecdotes don't really do much for your case. Far more deaths are attributable to the FDA than would be attributable to its absence. This is actually a fairly well-researched topic.

--Len.


You'll have to prove that one.

Len, it's clear you're not interested in the acceptance of libertarianism as a viable political system.  You are unable, or unwilling, to address even the most rudimentary of concerns that many people have.  If you want to be taken seriously, you're going to have to come up with more than platitudes.

OTOH, maybe you don't care a whit about the libertarian philosophy.  Maybe you're just a malcontent who likes to hear himself proselytize on an abstract and unworkable system.

Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2007, 04:46:23 PM »
Len, it's clear you're not interested in the acceptance of libertarianism as a viable political system.  You are unable, or unwilling, to address even the most rudimentary of concerns that many people have.  If you want to be taken seriously, you're going to have to come up with more than platitudes.

I'm happy to discuss people's concerns when they're posed as topics of discourse. If you're going to announce flatly that something will never work, when it's plain you haven't looked into it and are giving a knee-jerk response, there isn't much basis for discourse.

But you're well within your rights to ask (politely!) for support for my statement. In a nutshell, the FDA kills for a couple of reasons. First, they withhold life-saving drugs from the market, because nobody was ever condemned for not approving a drug. Second, they increase the price of development with excessive regulation so that no drug will be produced if it doesn't promise at least $1B in profits to cover development costs. Third, they indemnify the producers of dangerous drugs, who can legitimately say, "Hey, it's not our fault--the FDA said it was safe!" And fourth, they are a political organization in bed with the pharmaceutical industry--where do you think FDA gets its regulators?

Here are some preliminary examples (all form the same site for my searching convenience):


--Len.
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Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2007, 04:50:14 PM »
Uh, Riley, what world do you live in?  Do you really think once the word got out that this company was selling meat, people would still buy it?  The media would have a field day.

Exactly. An excellent example is the spinach contaminated with E Coli last year. Grocery stores had isolated and rectified the problem long before the government got off its hump. After the fact, the government ran around like an outraged bull blathering about criminal charges, mainly to cover up their uselessness.

--Len.

'Isolated and rectified' after they found themselves under investigation by the FDA, without which they'd still be denying blame.

They needed some incentive.  They got it.


Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2007, 04:52:14 PM »
Uh, Riley, what world do you live in?  Do you really think once the word got out that this company was selling meat, people would still buy it?  The media would have a field day.

Exactly. An excellent example is the spinach contaminated with E Coli last year. Grocery stores had isolated and rectified the problem long before the government got off its hump. After the fact, the government ran around like an outraged bull blathering about criminal charges, mainly to cover up their uselessness.

'Isolated and rectified' after they found themselves under investigation by the FDA, without which they'd still be denying blame.

No. They identified the offending products and pulled them off the shelves before the FDA got off its butt.

--Len.
In a cannibal society, vegetarians arouse suspicion.

Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2007, 04:53:36 PM »
Len, it's clear you're not interested in the acceptance of libertarianism as a viable political system.  You are unable, or unwilling, to address even the most rudimentary of concerns that many people have.  If you want to be taken seriously, you're going to have to come up with more than platitudes.

I'm happy to discuss people's concerns when they're posed as topics of discourse. If you're going to announce flatly that something will never work, when it's plain you haven't looked into it and are giving a knee-jerk response, there isn't much basis for discourse.

But you're well within your rights to ask (politely!) for support for my statement. In a nutshell, the FDA kills for a couple of reasons. First, they withhold life-saving drugs from the market, because nobody was ever condemned for not approving a drug. Second, they increase the price of development with excessive regulation so that no drug will be produced if it doesn't promise at least $1B in profits to cover development costs. Third, they indemnify the producers of dangerous drugs, who can legitimately say, "Hey, it's not our fault--the FDA said it was safe!" And fourth, they are a political organization in bed with the pharmaceutical industry--where do you think FDA gets its regulators?

Here are some preliminary examples (all form the same site for my searching convenience):


--Len.


It's not enough to simply attack the existing system.  You're going to have to provide an alternative.  Which you haven't done.  You haven't explained how the 'free market' would be any better than the existing system. 

Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2007, 04:57:31 PM »
Uh, Riley, what world do you live in?  Do you really think once the word got out that this company was selling meat, people would still buy it?  The media would have a field day.

Exactly. An excellent example is the spinach contaminated with E Coli last year. Grocery stores had isolated and rectified the problem long before the government got off its hump. After the fact, the government ran around like an outraged bull blathering about criminal charges, mainly to cover up their uselessness.

'Isolated and rectified' after they found themselves under investigation by the FDA, without which they'd still be denying blame.

No. They identified the offending products and pulled them off the shelves before the FDA got off its butt.

--Len.


That's your assertion.  It now becomes your responsibility to explain why the same mechanism did not prevent the Topps Meat Co. from pumping out 21.7 million pounds of contaminated meat before it was stopped by the USDA.

Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2007, 06:20:26 PM »
It now becomes your responsibility to explain why the same mechanism did not prevent the Topps Meat Co. from pumping out 21.7 million pounds of contaminated meat before it was stopped by the USDA.

Actually, you're trying to have it both ways: you're saying that without the FDA, millions of pounds of contaminated meat will be sold--but then point out a glaring example in which the FDA failed to prevent exactly that! I'd say it's your job to explain why the FDA waited two weeks before issuing the recall.

Also note that 21.7 million pounds of meat was recalled; that does not mean that 21.7 million pounds of meat were contaminated. It's almost certain that not all of the meat was contaminated: the recall was issued so broadly because of flawed record keeping. If the producer were better able to link shipments with specific processing plants and dates, they could have recalled far less--about 330K lbs, again not all of which was necessarily contaminated.

But most importantly of all, you're simply wrong: the recall was issued September 25; Walmart had already pulled Topps meat off their shelves on August 30, 25 days earlier.

This by the way, like the spinach episode, illustrates how the market (which is admittedly not altruistic) can look out for the well-being of customers. It's possible (though it would be foolish of them) for a supplier knowingly to release an unsafe product. The standard Marxist analysis says that this would be standard procedure: big, rich capitalists poisoning helpless workers to improve their bottom line. However, the "helpless" consumers have a powerful advocate: the retailer. It's the retailer that deals quickly and harshly with suppliers, in order to protect their profits from the damage done by angry (or sick or dead) customers. The individual customers complain to the retailers. The retailer, in this case Walmart, then socks it to the supplier, who either cleans up his act or goes out of business.

--Len.


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Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2007, 06:29:08 PM »
Quote
This by the way, like the spinach episode, illustrates how the market (which is admittedly not altruistic) can look out for the well-being of customers. It's possible (though it would be foolish of them) for a supplier knowingly to release an unsafe product. The standard Marxist analysis says that this would be standard procedure: big, rich capitalists poisoning helpless workers to improve their bottom line. However, the "helpless" consumers have a powerful advocate: the retailer. It's the retailer that deals quickly and harshly with suppliers, in order to protect their profits from the damage done by angry (or sick or dead) customers. The individual customers complain to the retailers. The retailer, in this case Walmart, then socks it to the supplier, who either cleans up his act or goes out of business.

Only if the consumer can positively link a specific retailer with the poisoning.  The economic power (and deniability) of a Walmart overwhelms any consumer (especially Walmart consumers) to the point of no lo contendre.  It is no contest, my libertarian friend.  Again, your 'defense' is to attack the strawman of Marxism, which clearly does not exist in the U.S.

Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2007, 06:39:47 PM »
Quote
This by the way, like the spinach episode, illustrates how the market (which is admittedly not altruistic) can look out for the well-being of customers... It's the retailer that deals quickly and harshly with suppliers...

Only if the consumer can positively link a specific retailer with the poisoning.  The economic power (and deniability) of a Walmart overwhelms any consumer (especially Walmart consumers) to the point of no lo contendre.  It is no contest, my libertarian friend.

You're not making sense any which way. In this case Walmart protected its customers, just as I said. You're trying to pretend the opposite. And as for "linking the retailer with the poisoning," you're being silly. If I get sick on home-cooking, my wife knows where she got her groceries. And if we get sick after eating at Chi-Chis, we know who to go complain to.

Finally, I'm not sure but it looks as if by "positively" you mean that the customer has to prove it. If so, you're wrong again: Walmart will gladly drop a supplier that customers yell about whether or not there's actually anything wrong. The customer is always right. And Walmart, unlike the judicial system, doesn't have to give its retailers "due process." That's one of the strengths of the market.

--Len.
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Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2007, 06:44:30 PM »
Quote
This by the way, like the spinach episode, illustrates how the market (which is admittedly not altruistic) can look out for the well-being of customers... It's the retailer that deals quickly and harshly with suppliers...

Only if the consumer can positively link a specific retailer with the poisoning.  The economic power (and deniability) of a Walmart overwhelms any consumer (especially Walmart consumers) to the point of no lo contendre.  It is no contest, my libertarian friend.

You're not making sense any which way. In this case Walmart protected its customers, just as I said. You're trying to pretend the opposite. And as for "linking the retailer with the poisoning," you're being silly. If I get sick on home-cooking, my wife knows where she got her groceries. And if we get sick after eating at Chi-Chis, we know who to go complain to.

Finally, I'm not sure but it looks as if by "positively" you mean that the customer has to prove it. If so, you're wrong again: Walmart will gladly drop a supplier that customers yell about whether or not there's actually anything wrong. The customer is always right. And Walmart, unlike the judicial system, doesn't have to give its retailers "due process." That's one of the strengths of the market.

--Len.

OK. Then please explain what is Walmart's incentive to drop a supplier based on a few complaints from some poor people (a few of Walmart's customers) until it becomes an epidemic affecting thousands. And is well publicized to the point of hurting Walmart sales? hmmm? Remember, we're talking about a multi billion dollar company here.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2007, 06:46:22 PM »
Len, I'm glad you and I agree on things now and then.  What's so funny is the way Riley harps on Bush for not being a conservative, yet Riley has more faith in the FDA than in the free market.  Pot and kettle and they are both black.   smiley
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Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2007, 06:53:36 PM »
Len, I'm glad you and I agree on things now and then.  What's so funny is the way Riley harps on Bush for not being a conservative, yet Riley has more faith in the FDA than in the free market.  Pot and kettle and they are both black.   smiley

Dear Mr. fistful (aka 'redbeard'),

George Bush is a joke, not only in the international community, but here in the USA as well.  Both Letterman and Leno regularly ridicule him, to everyone's amusement.  He's history as of January 20, 2009.  Also, Mr. Redbeard, he's currently the 'Chief Executive', which means the FDA is under his control.  If it's incompetent , remember A FISH STINKS FROM THE HEAD.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2007, 07:49:44 PM »
It just gets better.  You think I'm defending George Bush.  Hilarious.  I'm pointing out that Bush is not very conservative, and neither are you, despite your pretense.  A real conservative understands that bureaucracies are almost always less efficient and less competent than the market, regardless of who's in the Oval Office.  Railing on George Bush won't help you, sir. 

The one thing I don't understand is how an American can reach your advanced age and think that Late Show comedy means anything.  They never ridiculed any other presidents, did they?   rolleyes
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Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2007, 08:09:37 PM »
It just gets better.  You think I'm defending George Bush.  Hilarious.  I'm pointing out that Bush is not very conservative, and neither are you, despite your pretense.  A real conservative understands that bureaucracies are almost always less efficient and less competent than the market, regardless of who's in the Oval Office.  Railing on George Bush won't help you, sir. 

The one thing I don't understand is how an American can reach your advanced age and think that Late Show comedy means anything.  They never ridiculed any other presidents, did they?   rolleyes

First, I'm not at an 'advanced age', mr source of my social security benefits (keep workin', I'm pickin' up the cash deducted from your paycheck)

Second, you have no concept of a 'real conservative', as I've pointed out in a previous thread. Barry Goldwater was a real conservative, and he wanted nothing to do with your religious right hallelujah holier than thou flim flam men.

Third, you've always defended George Bush because he's the first President you've ever voted for.  You have no sense of history, young man.  You have not voted Republican since 1968 like me, you have not been schtuped by the Republican party, like me,  And you have no sense of the Real America, the America that existed just after WWII, bringing the greatest prosperity ever known in the history of mankind on the face of this planet.  You're just riding the wave, child.  And you don't even know it.  Better watch your ass, son.  The rest of the world is hungry and predatory.  And Mr. GWB, son of wealth, power an influence aint' gonna help you.  He already got his.

roo_ster

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2007, 02:24:31 AM »
Quote from: RileyMc
You have not voted Republican since 1968
Now, that's pretty funny: A guy who voted for the not-so-conservative Nixon criticizing another who voted for another not-so-conservative GWB...for not being conservative enough. 

More pot & kettle, I'm afraid.
Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

Perd Hapley

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2007, 02:38:41 AM »
Even if any of that were true, Riley, (and you're wrong on every single count) it wouldn't make you more conservative.  If you or W should need us, Mr. Goldwater and I will be over here on your far right, where the Real America began over two hundred years ago. 
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