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Author Topic: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers  (Read 8053 times)

RadioFreeSeaLab

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CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« on: October 16, 2007, 12:25:37 PM »

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/John_Harwood_After_poll_removal_CNBC_1016.html

An interesting quote...
Quote
However, the very next day, Harwood himself posted "My Open Letter To Ron Paul Supporters," in which he apologetically stated, "I agree with the complaints. I do not believe our poll was 'hacked.' Nor do I agree with my colleagues' decision to take it down, though I know they were acting in good faith. ... I have no reason to believe anything corrupt occurred with respect to our poll. To the contrary, I believe the results we measured showing an impressive 75% naming Paul reflect the organization and motivation of Paul's adherents. This is precisely what unscientific surveys of this kind are created to measure."

Manedwolf

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2007, 12:31:07 PM »

They aren't just followers anymore. Some of them meet all the definitions of a cult.

And yes, I've studied cults, I did a college thesis on their recruitment methods and how self-delusion works on the psyche.

Euclidean

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 04:21:18 PM »

So do many Clay Aiken fans.  Public figures attracting people who take it waaaaay too far is nothing new.  It matters not if they are a politician, or what their particular political stance is.  Some people just want somebody to follow, period.

I'm even a member of the local RP meetup group and I haven't met anybody who says anything other than he's the best choice among the available candidates, so I'd like to know where these cult members are, I've yet to meet any.  In fact most of RP's support is marginal, a lot of people don't like aspects of his platform but realize it's better than president Hilldog.

Talk to some Hilldog supporters if you can stand the stench.  You'd think the woman was the Second Coming.

Tuco

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 04:51:03 PM »

They aren't just followers anymore. Some of them meet all the definitions of a cult.

And yes, I've studied cults, I did a college thesis on their recruitment methods and how self-delusion works on the psyche.



Do party politics (republican or democrat; local or national) show any similarities to your case studies?
7-11 was a part time job.

Manedwolf

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2007, 06:29:17 PM »

They aren't just followers anymore. Some of them meet all the definitions of a cult.

And yes, I've studied cults, I did a college thesis on their recruitment methods and how self-delusion works on the psyche.

Do party politics (republican or democrat; local or national) show any similarities to your case studies?

Of course. Any leadership figure or system of beliefs is capable of becoming a cult, whether through the actions of leaders themselves, or through followers who go from "devoted" to "obsessed". They create their own society about it, with its own rules, its own stated beliefs, and that group's members reinforce each other, until, like a laser with light bouncing back and forth between mirrors, it becomes particularly focused and intense.

The Ron Paul supporters in some cases are absolutely obsessed fringe group libertarians who were already on the edge of sanity, the total "f the police!" anarchist sort. Groups of those have become apostles, and they're downright obnoxious. We have a bunch here, unfortunately. Fortunately, they keep getting arrested, too, for things like declaring that they don't need licenses and registrations to drive.  grin

Patriot

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2007, 06:57:46 PM »

They aren't just followers anymore. Some of them meet all the definitions of a cult.

And yes, I've studied cults, I did a college thesis on their recruitment methods and how self-delusion works on the psyche.


That's too funny.  Reading some of the statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls about the "Teacher of Righteousness" vs the "sons of darkness" does kind of remind me of the more virulent Ron Paul supporters.   grin

'And the three nets are cast by RINO, and one who escapes the one shall fall into the other, and the nets are:  McCain, Rudy, and Romney.  And the Thompson has lead many astray in the name of Conservatarianism, but the truth was not known to him.  For the interpretation concerning Conservatarianism is clear, that the Ronpaul alone has been given to understand the mysteries of the Constitution.  And the interpretation is such:  that the Constitution has been profaned and ignored by evil men, but to an elect the truth of Libertarianism has been revealed.  So it shall be that in the days of the primary the sons of Liberty shall arise and defeat the sons of Statism.  There will follow a time of salvation for the people of Ronpaul....'  laugh

GigaBuist

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2007, 07:20:18 PM »

The quote in the orignal post, which I've seen elsewhere, got me thinking:  Maybe they're just taking the polls down too early?

Looking online at the people signed up for my local Ron Paul meetup.com group I can tell that most of them are younger.  Almost all under 40.  It's perfectly reasonable to assume that this age demographic will be a little more tuned into the Internet and modern communications.  Very easy to send out an email reminding everybody to vote during the actual debate, even to people that aren't even watching, thus resulting in a virtual landslide of Ron Paul support when the polls open, and then the host of the debate starts publishing these numbers immediately.

What if they acted more like an actual election?  Nobody starts publishing data until the polls are closed.  After the debate the poll remains open until 12pm or 1am and come 9am the next day they release the numbers.  They might even out after the initial rush of RP supporters.

Now, I know why they don't run them like this:  That's no good for ratings.  Who the heck stays tuned into a football game when it's 48 - 3 with 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter?  Nobody.  They push out the initial numbers, see that Ron Paul's supporters voted early, he's got a huge lead, and nobody's interested in watching the numbers flip about the screen anymore.

Euclidean

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2007, 10:35:56 PM »

It's fair to say most RP supporters are under 40 but the most active RP supporters in my local community are 50 and 60 somethings.  Heck, the man himself is a stuffy old doctor.

(musing on)

Really I don't understand where this idea that anarchist = libertarian comes from, those two ideas are quite different.  Anarchism is more or less we assume everyone is good and kind and wonderful so we'll all just cooperate and no state is necessary.  Libertarianism is the idea that a government is necessary but the government is inherently problematic, so it must be contained to the smallest scope possible.

This idea has always been built into American government and we just have let it be corrupted away from us.  From the Alien and Sedition act, to Lincoln suspending the writ of habeus corpus shutting down newspapers critical of his actions in the Civil War to FDR managing to persuade America that the socialist programs he dubbed the New Deal bolstered the post WW2 American economy, we've slowly lost our way right from the get go.

Look at Article I Section 8.  Those powers are clearly enumerated for a reason.  It takes a politician to convince you that anywhere in there is Congress granted the authority to do two thirds of what it currently does.

Jefferson ran the country with five scribes.  Our forefathers would wonder why on earth Congress was in session for more than a few weeks per calendar year.

Is it really so wacky to want the government to stop its neurotic, self destructive behavior and try limited government, an idea of which we have ample reason to suspect actually works?

Is it my goal to achieve some perfect libertarian state?  Of course it is.  Do I expect that to happen?  Of course not.  People aren't that inherently good to not find new ways to abuse the government for their own benefit.  It will always be a problem.  But in seeking the ideal, we become something greater than our current selves, and perhaps even ultimately arrive at something greater than that to which we aspired in the process.

So what do you do?  You try to understand libertarian ideas.  Then you look at the way things are and build a bridge from one to the other.  I for example oppose the legislation making machine guns so hard to acquire.  Ideally, we would simply repeal this legislation.  That would be correct, you now have a solution and a goal all in one.  But it's not going to happen in the real world that we just suddenly achieve it.

So what do you do?  First you work on securing your existing access to the arms you are still allowed to have.  Then you start chipping away at the key components, 922(o) for instance.  You challenge the very existence of the bureaus which enforce those laws so that they have no teeth.  You fight back with the same creeping incrementalism which got you here in the first place.  You fight like a wolverine, make no compromises, and attack the thing you hate on all fronts.

If you can gradually shift the momentum in the direction towards freedom, it's like packing snowflakes together one at a time to make a snowball.  Eventually the snowball gets big enough and begins to roll, packing on more snow, and then suddenly it goes over the edge of the cliff and disturbs a snowbank, and the snowbank falls, starting an avalanche.  But the initial phases are hard, time consuming, and difficult, and there's little support.  Most of the snowflakes you try to gather will simply melt in your hand as people who support these new ideas will be called fools, maniacs, and other insults while they yet live, and will be derided and opposed.  Just look at what they did to Galileo.

It matters not to me however.  Anything ever accomplished that has brought new light into the human experience was pioneered by a handful of determined individuals.  And in seeking the ideal do we secure our only hope for individual accomplishment, an act in such scarce supply, yet it is the very thing which advances our own existence and the existence of those to come.

Smokehouse

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2007, 01:20:34 AM »

Thanks, Euclidean. Very well said!!

Manedwolf

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2007, 04:08:41 AM »

Euclidean, the problem is that there's a lot of RP supporters who are fools and maniacs.

There's a bunch of loons here who invaded NH and call themselves the "free state project". We don't want them here. They do things like protest to support the convicted tax evaders, the Browns, and supply them with weapons. (several got arrested on federal charges). They parade around downtown open-carrying and try to get in confrontations with the police about it, cameras ready. They decide they don't need licenses or registrations to drive and get arrested for that. They make threats about federal officials on web boards and get arrested for that.

Confrontational anarchist hippies who seem to delight in "sticking it to the man" by repeatedly being arrested (...?) are the loudest public face here of the Ron Paul campaign, and wow, have they turned people off to him!

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: CNBC learns not to 'mess with' Ron Paul, followers
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2007, 05:14:23 AM »

Euclidean, well said, very well said.
Manedwolf, true, there are some supporters of Dr. Paul  who are nuts.  And they are loud.  So what?  There are supporters of McCain, Romeny, That fascist from New York, and the rest who are also nuts.  Perhaps not as loud, but still nuts.  And don't even get me started on the Hillary people.