Author Topic: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS  (Read 42393 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #125 on: April 17, 2008, 06:51:32 PM »
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #126 on: April 17, 2008, 06:54:06 PM »
Parental consent can lower the marriageable age.
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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #127 on: April 17, 2008, 06:57:16 PM »
Now this could be VERY interesting...

Quote
Springs call may have sparked Texas raid

Denver Post Staff and wire reports
Article Last Updated: 04/17/2008 09:51:40 PM MDT


A prank call from a 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman may have sparked the raid at a West Texas polygamist compound.

Rozita Swinton was arrested at her home Wednesday evening on charges of false reporting in a Colorado Springs case, but Texas Rangers were involved, Colorado Springs police said tonight.

ABC News reported tonight that former Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints member Flora Jessop, who operates a rescue mission for teenage girls trying to escape the sect, told authorities she had gotten calls from a girl claiming to be an abused member.

Jessop told ABC News began recording those calls, which Texas Rangers traced to Colorado Springs.

The network said Rangers where present when Swinton was arrested, but have not formally charged her in the Texas case.

Though announcing the potential link, Colorado Springs Police declined to elaborate on the Texas case, and records into Swinton's Colorado Springs case have been sealed by a judge.

The Texas case drawing national attention began two weeks ago when an unidentified female called an abuse hot line, saying she was a 16-year-old sect member who had been beaten and raped by her 50-year-old husband.

A judge ordered the search of the polygamous compound in Eldorado, 40 miles south of San Angelo, but have never found the caller.

The state took legal custody of 416 children, who are being housed at two sites in San Angelo, about 200 miles west of San Antonio. Another 139 women voluntarily left the compound operated by the Mormon splinter group.

A court hearing today descended into farce, with hundreds of lawyers in two packed buildings shouting objections and the judge struggling to maintain order.

The case — one of the biggest, most convoluted child-custody hearings in U.S. history — presented an extraordinary spectacle: big-city lawyers in suits and mothers in 19th-century, pioneer-style dresses, all packed into a courtroom and a nearby auditorium connected by video.

At issue was an attempt by the state of Texas to strip the parents of custody and place the children in foster homes because of evidence they were being physically and sexually abused or in imminent danger of abuse by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon splinter group suspected of forcing underage girls into marriage with older men.

As many feared, the proceedings turned into something of a circus — and a painfully slow one.

By evening, only three witnesses had testified, including state child welfare investigator Angie Voss, who said women may have had children when they were minors, some as young as age 13.

At least five girls who are younger than 18 are now pregnant or have children, Voss said.

No decisions had been made on the fate of any of the youngsters, and the hearing was to continue Friday.

Additional details on life at the ranch began to emerge as Voss testified.

She said that if one of the men fell out of favor with the FLDS, his wives and children would be reassigned to other men. The children would then identify the new man as their father. Voss said that contributed to the problem of identifying children's family links and their ages.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther struggled to keep order as she faced 100 lawyers in her 80-year-old Tom Green County courtroom and several hundred more participating over a grainy video feed from an ornate City Hall auditorium two blocks away.

The hearing disintegrated quickly into a barrage of shouted objections and attempts to file motions, with lawyers for the children objecting to objections made by the parents' attorneys.

When the judge sustained an objection to the prolonged questioning of the state trooper, the lawyers cheered.

Upon another objection about the proper admission of medical records of the children, the judge threw up her hands.

"I assume most of you want to make the same objection. Can I have a universal, 'Yes, Judge'?" she said.

In both buildings, the hundreds of lawyers stood and responded in unison: "Yes, Judge."

But she added to the chaos as well.

Walther refused to put medical records and other evidence in electronic form, which could be e-mailed among the lawyers, because it contained personal information. A courier had to run from the courthouse to the auditorium delivering one document at a time.

"We're going to handle this the best we can, one client at a time," Walther said.

Little evidence had been admitted; the first attempt resulted in an hourlong recess while all the lawyers examined it. The rest of the morning was spent in arguments about whether to admit the medical records of three girls, two 17-year-olds and one 18-year-old.

Department of Public Safety Sgt. Danny Crawford testified to DPS's discovery of a church bishop's records taken from a safe at the ranch that listed about 38 families, some of them polygamous and some that included wives 16 or 17 years old. But under repeated cross-examination, Crawford acknowledged the records contained no evidence of sexual abuse.

The sect came to West Texas in 2003, relocating some members from the church's traditional home along the Utah-Arizona state line. Its prophet and spiritual leader, Warren Jeffs, is in prison for forcing an underage girl into marriage in Utah.

Voss testified that through their interviews with girls at the ranch, investigators believed there was a pattern of underage girls given in marriage to older men.

Voss said that if the prophet told the girl to marry or to lie the girl would do as instructed.

"If the prophet told her to lie she would because the prophet received all his messages from the Heavenly Father," Voss said.

State officials asked the judge for permission to conduct genetic testing on the children and adults because of difficulty sorting out the sect's tangled family relationships and matching youngsters with their parents. The judge did not immediately rule.

Amid the shouting and chaos among the lawyers, who came from around Texas to represent the children and parents free of charge, dozens of mothers sat timidly in their long cotton dresses, long underwear even in the spring heat, and braided upswept hair.

In the satellite courtroom, hundreds of people strained to see and hear a large projector set up on the auditorium's stage. But the feed was blurry and barely audible.

"I'm not in a position to advocate for anything," complained Susan Hays, the appointed attorney for a 2-year-old sect member.

Outside, where TV satellite trucks lined the street in front of the courthouse's columned facade, a man who said he was an FLDS father waved a photo of himself surrounded by his five children, ranging from a baby to a child of about 9.

"Look, look, look," the father said. "These children are all smiling, we're happy."

Authorities raided their compound April 3 in the nearby town of Eldorado — a 1,700-acre ranch with a blindingly white limestone temple and log cabin-style houses — and began collecting documents and disk drives that might provide evidence of underage girls being married to adults.

The children, who are being kept in a domed coliseum in San Angelo, range in age from 6 months to 17 years. Roughly 100 of them are under 4.

FLDS members deny children were abused and say the state is persecuting them for their faith.

The judge must weigh the allegations of abuse and also decide whether it is in the children's best interest to be placed into mainstream society after they have been told all their lives that the outside world is hostile and immoral.

If the judge gives the state permanent custody of the children, the Texas child services agency will face the enormous task of finding suitable homes. It will also have to decipher brother-sister relationships so that it can try to preserve them.

Over the past two weeks, the agency has relied on volunteers to help feed the children, do their laundry and provide crafts and games for them.

Gov. Rick Perry would not say how much the case is costing the state, but said: "Does the state of Texas have the resources?

Absolutely we do."

Source: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_8965600

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Perd Hapley

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #128 on: April 17, 2008, 07:22:01 PM »
Strings call?  That trouble-maker.   angry
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #129 on: April 17, 2008, 09:23:46 PM »
you rang?

 Personally, I think we need to wait a bit, and get more info. IF there were young women below the age of consent being forced into marriage, then there's a problem...

roo_ster

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #130 on: April 18, 2008, 05:18:35 AM »
I heard TX Atty Gnl Abbott on the radio saying something to the effect, "Well, the phone call didn't have anything to do with it....and anyway there is lots of evidence...."

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #131 on: April 18, 2008, 06:02:52 AM »
I'm beginning to think I was right all along, a suspicious phone tip cost them their lives.
The same thing was tried in AZ but in AZ I guess they don't rip your family apart over an anon phone call.
All their evidence is fruit of the poisoned tree...anyone with a degree in "LA Law" and "Law & Order, SUV" can tell you that!

The Warren Jeffs case also involves a 19 yr old marrying a 14 yr old (Jeffs arraigned it)
I knew better at 19 but it is hardly a case of a 50 year old marrying a 14, as the media is prone to allege.
Its time for TX and most of you guys to admit "mistakes were made"
and TX to pay up for all the destruction.

Again, whats the phone number for me to destroy Westboro?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #132 on: April 18, 2008, 09:09:57 AM »
All their evidence is fruit of the poisoned tree...anyone with a degree in "LA Law" and "Law & Order, SUV" can tell you that!


you think?  how so?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Firethorn

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #133 on: April 18, 2008, 09:42:57 AM »
Can any APSers explain the apparent contradiction?

Generally speaking, if you're under 18 you need parental permission to get married.  The age of consent(at least the ones I've seen), contain an exemption if they're married to each other.

Does make this more complex, as they obviously had their parent's permission(and orders) to get married.

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #134 on: April 18, 2008, 10:07:40 AM »
Trying to wrap my head around Gunsmith's argument...

Are you in favor of children having children?   undecided
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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #135 on: April 18, 2008, 10:21:51 AM »
Quote
One is perplexed by this claim, as Wiki states the age of consent in the state is 17
Reporters are using Wikipedia for information?
But it appears to be correct.
Consent to marriage: 18, 16 with parent permission.
Consent to sex: 17 (except with spouse)
See:
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/FA/content/htm/fa.001.00.000002.00.htm
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.005.00.000021.00.htm#21.11.00

roo_ster

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #136 on: April 18, 2008, 11:42:48 AM »
Are you in favor of children having children?   undecided

No.

Thing is, couple of generations ago, late teen-aged females married all the time.  My grandma was feeling the heat when she married "late" at age 20 (her opinion).

So, there would be plenty of married females under age 20 with one or two kids 'round her time.

Now, the laws have changed a bit to suit our differing/contemporary opinions as to what is a suitable marrying age.  I am not particularly surprised that a religious sect that seems a throwback to the 19th century has some 19th century practices and mores.

When I moved to Arkansas in the late 1980s, the age of consent was 14 years old and I think that was also the earliest age one could marry.  It was later raised to 16.

Some of this very may well be dirty old bastards raping young girls.  Some also may be a 19th vs 21st century clash of mores.

False anonymous tips don't improve the issue.
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Bill T.

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #137 on: April 18, 2008, 12:53:47 PM »
I am amazed at the people here defending this group despite the volume of info on how sick they are.  Have you ever seen the videos of Warren Jeffs, their prophet?  I don't have a link right now, but there were several videos on America's Most Wanted when Jeffs was on the run.

I am all for freedom of religion, but what part of 50 year old guy forcing themselves on 13 year old girls is acceptable to you? 

This is what they do in FLDS:   
Quote
NPR.org, May 3, 2005
Upon the death of his father, 49-year-old Warren Jeffs took over as prophet of the FLDS, or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in September of 2002. Jeff's father, Rulon T. Jeffs, had been the group's prophet for the previous 15 years. He died at the age of 92, leaving an estimated 75 widows and 65 children to mourn him.

The nearly two-decade tenure of father and son has split the polygamist community on the Utah-Arizona border. After taking power in 1986, Rulon Jeffs slowly abolished the seven-member Priesthood Council that had previously governed the sect. Rulon Jeffs eventually claimed a "One Man Rule" and as a result, part of the group split away and founded their own polygamist settlement nearby.

According to former followers, the prophet is considered to be God's mouthpiece on earth. It is believed that God speaks directly to Warren Jeffs to reveal His will. And through the prophet, God directs which male members are worthy of entry into heaven (females are invited into heaven by satisfied husbands). Jeffs is also the only person who can perform marriages, and it is through him that wives are assigned to their husbands. Pleasing the prophet can result in loyal members being rewarded with one or more wives. Wives are considered to "belong" to their husbands for eternity.

In order to reach the highest degree of glory in heaven, members of the FLDS believe that each man must have at least three wives. A significant means of prophet power is derived from his ability to punish followers by reassigning their wives, children and homes to another man. Obedience is highly valued, and it is rare for wives to resist reassignment.

The group takes its theology regarding "plural marriages" from the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and the early Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, better known as the Mormon Church. But under pressure from the U.S. government, church leaders abandoned polygamy in 1890 so that Utah could gain statehood. Polygamists believe that's when the Mormon Church strayed from the path of righteousness. Likewise, members of the FLDS are not welcome in Mormon congregations, and Mormons who are found practicing polygamy are excommunicated.

Nearly all property in Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, including residential property, is owned by a church trust and controlled by Warren Jeffs. According to former vice-mayor and Colorado City Councilman Richard Holm, the trust is estimated to be worth in excess of $100 million. Holm also estimates that Warren Jeffs has more than 50 wives. But exactly how many wives, or where Jeffs is currently, nobody outside his inner circle seems to know.

There are widely varying estimates of how many people practice polygamy in North America -- 20,000 to 50,000 and more -- but the secrecy of such groups makes a definitive number elusive.

Link to article: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629320

Please, rationalize how you can defend this type of activity.

Perd Hapley

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #138 on: April 18, 2008, 12:59:30 PM »
Could you cite specific instances of APS members defending these activities? 
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #139 on: April 18, 2008, 01:06:35 PM »
Could you cite specific instances of APS members defending these activities? 

APS members by default do not want government intervention in any private activity.  Since government is the ONLY enforcer of the law, their exclusion automatically condones all kinds of criminal behavior.

Gewehr98

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #140 on: April 18, 2008, 01:17:23 PM »
18 years old is fine in my little religious world for child-bearing and rearing.

Girls pregnant and "spiritually married" at age 13 and 14 to their 50-something husbands, as reported in today's disclosures in the investigation, is not defensible, regardless of what one claims under the guise of religion freedom.

That's what I'm afraid some APS members are claiming is OK, and that's what I have problems with.   undecided

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Perd Hapley

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #141 on: April 18, 2008, 01:24:02 PM »
Quote
That's what I'm afraid some APS members are claiming is OK,

I think I did see one person claim that, as a matter of religious freedom.  But he seems to have been all alone.  No one else seems to be defending the 13/50 forced marriage. 

Can we not discuss the legal issues without all the slander? 
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gunsmith

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #142 on: April 18, 2008, 01:59:18 PM »
Bill T post one.
Quote
Please, rationalize how you can defend this type of activity.
WHY!?
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Quote
I am all for freedom of religion, but what part of 50 year old guy forcing themselves on 13 year old girls is acceptable to you?

Do you still beat your wife? rolleyes

Quote
Are you in favor of children having children?
Technically, Children are incapable of reproduction, I could be in favor of moon pies on Mercury but its a silly postulation,
As far as teenagers, they are better equipped physically to reproduce
But our society has extended Childhood to 35 years old in the emotional and spiritual planes.
Thomas Jefferson was learning Greek, French & Latin at 9 years old and drinking wine in college at 16, he also inherited land and a bunch of slaves at 14.(maybe thats when he met Sally Hemmings)
afaik 16 year old guys married 13 year old girls all the time in the old west and started families.

I do not think that teenagers should necessarily have children nowadays, but I do not think it is mandatory that they have abortions either, and if two teens have a good life and marriage then who am I to judge them?

Hysterical liberals say we need to force sex ed down children's throats
then we need to kill their babies if they get pregnant under the age of 30.
Racist planned parenthood makes a huge profit over the sale of baby parts .

anyway, no time to finish, I'll be back tomorrow
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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #143 on: April 18, 2008, 02:37:58 PM »
I heard TX Atty Gnl Abbott on the radio saying something to the effect, "Well, the phone call didn't have anything to do with it....and anyway there is lots of evidence...."
Then you must have already gotten lots of indictments, right?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #144 on: April 18, 2008, 02:51:11 PM »
OK, gunsmith, tell us how you really feel.   undecided

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Gewehr98

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #145 on: April 18, 2008, 03:05:42 PM »
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.  sad

I've met that sort before, unfortunately.

Their mantra is usually "If there's grass on the field, play ball" or "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed".

In deference to the owner of the forum and the membership, we will not let APS promulgate that type of discourse, period.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #146 on: April 19, 2008, 04:51:49 AM »
Quote
That's what I'm afraid some APS members are claiming is OK,

I think I did see one person claim that, as a matter of religious freedom.  But he seems to have been all alone.  No one else seems to be defending the 13/50 forced marriage. 



If MSNBC is right [and that's MSNBC talking], it's a 16/50 marriage at worst, and no indication on whether it's forced or not.

So for the record:

On one hand, I oppose all forced marriages, regardless of age. That much is obvious.

However, on the other hand, I do think the age of consent should be lower than what it is today in most of the United States, and  should be enforced with discretion when it comes to teenagers.

By which I mean, if you have some form  of proof that you maintained a meaningful relationship with the person, rather than abused your influence over him/her to receive sexual perks, that should count as a defense/extenuating circumstance. This is because there ARE some cases where young teenagers have meaningful relationships with older men [think Sally Hemmings/Thomas Jefferson].
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MicroBalrog

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #147 on: April 19, 2008, 04:53:19 AM »
Oh, and someone needs to shoot the whole hysteria about pedophiles in the head.

Not everybody who has a relationship with a person below the age of consent is a zOMG EVIL PEDO.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #148 on: April 19, 2008, 04:53:59 AM »
This is because there ARE some cases where young teenagers have meaningful relationships with older men [think Sally Hemmings/Thomas Jefferson].


Interesting choice of example, there.   undecided   laugh
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MicroBalrog

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Re: 52 people taken or 200 people taken FLDS
« Reply #149 on: April 19, 2008, 04:56:39 AM »
This is because there ARE some cases where young teenagers have meaningful relationships with older men [think Sally Hemmings/Thomas Jefferson].


Interesting choice of example, there.   undecided   laugh

Nobody really knows what kind of relationship Sally and Thom had, unless you buy into the really radical left ones where "Evil Dead White Male Jefferson repeatedly raped Hemmings six times a day while beating her with a bull-whip."  But I buy into the version where they actually had, you know, a relationship.
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