Move over, Prius

[Daniel964]

Okay, without the battery the engine/generator has to be rated for the maximum load.  Plus the inefficiencies of electric transmission.  For trains, I think what they were trying to do was avoid needing a 128 or 256 speed manual transmission 

The battery acts as a sort of "flywheel" to even out the load demands, so the powerplant can be much smaller.

Part of the reason that a pickup or SUV (or any conventional car, really) can't get better mileage is that it needs the power to accelerate quickly and/or pull heavy loads.  But most of the time it has excess capacity, which costs a lot in fuel economy.

But batteries are heavy, expensive, and dangerous.

I dunno ... what about compressed air motors for the wheels?
Then just have an gasoline powered air compressor with a really big tank

Or maybe rubber bands ...? 

It's being built now in India by Tata. Google air powered cars and you should get some info. Their supposed to be importing to the US later this year or next year I think. Four hours to charge the take by plugging it in at home. About 120 mile range. A gas engine will be in the US ones for long trips. Is supposed to get 800-1000 mile range on one tank of gas.

[anygunanywhere]

It's being built now in India by Tata. Google air powered cars and you should get some info. Their supposed to be importing to the US later this year or next year I think. Four hours to charge the take by plugging it in at home. About 120 mile range. A gas engine will be in the US ones for long trips. Is supposed to get 800-1000 mile range on one tank of gas.

So if I bought two of them people would tell me "Nice Tata's"? I don't think so. I need my man card.

Anygunanywhere

[mek42]

You gotta admit, though, that cars such as the Prius made cars like the Volt acceptable to the average Joe.  Something had to ease them into that technology...

But the Prius isn't acceptable to the average Joe...    

Yeah, because they aren't plug-in and the price difference over the Echo / Yaris negates the gas savings (which on the highway is negligible between them).

[Manedwolf]

You gotta admit, though, that cars such as the Prius made cars like the Volt acceptable to the average Joe.  Something had to ease them into that technology...

But the Prius isn't acceptable to the average Joe...    

Yeah, because they aren't plug-in and the price difference over the Echo / Yaris negates the gas savings (which on the highway is negligible between them).

They're also shockingly junky inside, and the controls being in the center of the dash is just asinine.

[mtnbkr]

For the Prius to not be acceptable to the average Joe, there sure are a lot of them running around.  Point is, cars like the Prius made alternative vehicles acceptable.  Buying one is no longer the realm of the "early adopter".

Chris

[charby]

I don't think it would be possible to make a clutch large enough/durable enough to get a fully loaded locomotive and train rolling.

What about those external combustion trains, aka steam powered? They must of had one helluva clutch to engage. The steam trains I have been around have forward and reverse gears.

I have a feeling the diesel electric was created to provide the efficiency of power that an electric motor can give.

That and you don't have to burn a ton of coal and 1000 gallons of water to go a hundred miles.

[Manedwolf]

I don't think it would be possible to make a clutch large enough/durable enough to get a fully loaded locomotive and train rolling.

What about those external combustion trains, aka steam powered? They must of had one helluva clutch to engage. The steam trains I have been around have forward the reverse.

I have a feeling the diesel electric was created to provide the efficiency of power that an electric motor can give.

That and you don't have to burn a ton of coal and 1000 gallons of water to go a hundred miles.

I'm picturing the reversing-gear engine on massive reciprocating-piston engines like the Olympic-class liners had. Apparently Titanic the film did a pretty good job in depicting just how violent a clang it would be when the drive shifted over like that with the massive reversing gear.

BTW, New Zealand apparently has cool museums. Check out this HUGE steam engine in operation. I am still in awe of people who designed stuff like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hKAC8Xru84&NR=1

[mfree]

Steam trains had no clutch and no gearing.

To start, just apply pressure and hope that you aren't on the dead spot (which is why a lot of engines had ~90 degrees seperation between power strokes)

To reverse, you altered the valving to admit steam BTDC and the engine would run backwards.

[charby]

Steam trains had no clutch and no gearing.

To start, just apply pressure and hope that you aren't on the dead spot (which is why a lot of engines had ~90 degrees seperation between power strokes)

To reverse, you altered the valving to admit steam BTDC and the engine would run backwards.

I just read that and was going to post I made an error about trains. Regarding steam tractors, they might have a clutch or something.

[Firethorn]

They might of had a clutch, but it wouldn't be used in the traditional manner.  Regardless, you could introduce steam to the piston to get pressure and movement at zero RPM without stalling.

Most trains today are diesel electric because in that size you can get generators and motors that are ~98% efficient, which makes it such that the electric is actually more efficient, lighter, and cheaper than a transmission capable of handling the stresses - much less a torque converter or clutch plate capable of handling those strains.

Making it a hybrid simply invovles a little more electronics/programming and batteries.  Still, the question occurs:  Is it worth the extra weight of the batteries, considering how many batteries it would take to make regenerative braking worth it, and how little they'd actually be used?

Personally, I'd be more likely to put an external power system into switching yards.  You install electrified rails in frequent accelleration areas and use line power/batteries/flywheel to provide the power for a train exiting the station.  If you have a flywheel or batteries, you can even have the train dump power to the rail for charging/spinning up.

[charby]

I was doing some research this afternoon about the steam tractors, and yes the clutch technology was developed due to the result of a steam engine tractor that became self propelled.

[Antibubba]

I'm waiting for Citroen to bring their gorgeous C-Metisse to market. That's the hybrid the non-green part of me wants.

Iain, are you sure that's a Citroen?  It isn't ugly enough.

[K Frame]

"What about those external combustion trains, aka steam powered? They must of had one helluva clutch to engage. The steam trains I have been around have forward and reverse gears."

But they don't have a CLUTCH.

They have drive pistons that are linked directly to the wheels.

Steam enters the drive pistons and exerts increasing force until either the wheels slip or the force starts to overcome the train's inertia.

The engineer would, with the "throttle," open a series of valves that would allow increasing amounts of steam into the drive cylinders.

There was no clutch plate, no clutch, no friction surface, no throw out bearing, etc. Just steam pressure in the drive cylinders.

Reversing wasn't done by "gears" either. Throwing the reversing lever changed the valve configuration and how steam entered the drive cylinders.


Here's a page with a better explanation, including animations showing the drive pistons and slide valves work to directed the flow of steam and power the system: http://www.keveney.com/Locomotive.html

[charby]

Mike

I figures that out after I posted it, look at road locomotives, aka steam tractors and use of gears and clutch to become selfpropelled.

-C

[Gewehr98]

Yup.  No clutches, although Walschaert's Valve Gear is incredible to watch in motion:



There's an incredible amount of torque available to a 2-cylinder steam locomotive, because they're double-action, essentially acting like 4 cylinders for all practical purposes.  Same goes for the Case and other steam tractors that are common in my neck of the woods come August.  We host the Badger Steam & Gas Engine show, showcased by a huge Corliss steam engine w/the always-intriguing spinning ball governor.  Having a big Case steam tractor clank its way past your house enroute to the show is a sight worth beholding, although it somewhat unnerved our horses. 

[charby]

okay guys what part of I know that a train locomotive has no clutches and direction is done by switching valves don't you get.

What I am talking about is self propelled steam tractors

Like this.

[Tallpine]

I dunno anything about steam tractors, but a steam car would be neat.

Instead of having an electronic console in the center of the dash, you could have a little door where you stick in wood or coal now and then

[Manedwolf]

I dunno anything about steam tractors, but a steam car would be neat.

Instead of having an electronic console in the center of the dash, you could have a little door where you stick in wood or coal now and then

I think that's in the back...and coal is tricky. You need to rake out clinkers, stoke and spread the coal evenly in a quick motion, or you risk lowering the fire temp dramatically, which is bad.

[Tallpine]

I dunno anything about steam tractors, but a steam car would be neat.

Instead of having an electronic console in the center of the dash, you could have a little door where you stick in wood or coal now and then

I think that's in the back...and coal is tricky. You need to rake out clinkers, stoke and spread the coal evenly in a quick motion, or you risk lowering the fire temp dramatically, which is bad.

Would that be as bad as talking on the cellphone while you drive ? 

[charby]

I dunno anything about steam tractors, but a steam car would be neat.

Instead of having an electronic console in the center of the dash, you could have a little door where you stick in wood or coal now and then

I think that's in the back...and coal is tricky. You need to rake out clinkers, stoke and spread the coal evenly in a quick motion, or you risk lowering the fire temp dramatically, which is bad.

Make carpooling interesting, one would be the engineer and someone else the fireman.

[Tallpine]

I going to burn cow chips when I get my steam car

[K Frame]

There were any number of practical, very popular steam cars in the early days of automobiles.

Quite a few electric cars and trucks, too.

Steam cars did not use wood or coal.

They used kerosene, generally.


Clutching a steam tractor is a LOT more realistic. Far lighter than a locomotive.

We used to churn ice cream at my church with a 1903 Case steam tractor.

[RocketMan]

We used to churn ice cream at my church with a 1903 Case steam tractor.

That had to be seriously cool to see.

[charby]

We used to churn ice cream at my church with a 1903 Case steam tractor.

That had to be seriously cool to see.

Equally cool is West Point, IA has a sweet corn fesitval in August and they have the corn cookers hooked up to the boiler on the steam tractor. Tractor doesn't do much because they don't build up a head steam to power it but use it to heat the water.

[The Annoyed Man]

I wonder who will be the first to produce a light truck hybrid. I thought GM would have nailed that market down.

Instead, they took the biggest dern vehicle they had and made a hybrid version that only gets about 4 MPG better than the standard version.

With those kinds of marketing decisions, no wonder they have to shut down plants.