Critical Mass in Seattle: cars vs. bicycles

[yesitsloaded]

I know... the conversation seemed to be stating that this was just a Pacific Northwest thing. NYC is not anywhere near Seattle. The article was 2004, the cop knocking the guy off the bike was this year.

[Firethorn]

I think the point was that people who have jobs don't have time nor the desire to break other people's stuff to make a statement.

If this was slashdot, I'd mod you insightful.  Then again, this very thought is a major premise behind what my strategy for Iraq would be - get everyone possible employed.  If they're tired out from working 40-60 hours a week, but getting enough to live(modestly) off of it, then they're much less likely to become an insurgent or terrorist.

[Bigjake]

The fact someone has a job is at best an excuse for not protesting. Not a justification.

Because protesting is such an effective tool for getting what you want? 

I don't recall any massive protests last year when we forced the Amnesty Bill back down Congress and GW's throat.  Just huge PROACTIVE public outcry. 

When was the last time leftist "protests" succeeded in causing anything but trouble?  Hint, not since the civil rights movement.

 Showing your ass mob style ala "protesting" is worthless.  Flooding your benevolent leaders phonelines, email and snailmail is effective.

[MicroBalrog]

Yeah, the civil rights movement. So unimportant, that.

By the way, protesting is not necessarily done mob-style.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Yeah, the civil rights movement. So unimportant, that.

By the way, protesting is not necessarily done mob-style.

Protesting doesn't have to be mob-style, but these days that seems to be their preferred method.  It is, as Jake says, highly ineffective.

[MicroBalrog]

Yeah, the civil rights movement. So unimportant, that.

By the way, protesting is not necessarily done mob-style.

Protesting doesn't have to be mod-style, but these days that seems to be their preferred method.  It is, as Jake says, highly ineffective.

I've participated in a 'mob-style' protest myself, and it worked (though that's not the point).

A variety of tactics exist, and are widely used to attract attention to issues. Think of the open-carry marches that were used by the CCL movement in some states where open carry was legal, but concealed wasn't.

Hunger strikes (if you're brave and healthy), one-man protests (where protesters take turns standing with a placard in shifts, so nobody can really pin you on not having enough people - it's supposed to only have one guy at any given time), and outright civil disobedience (peaceful, of  course), are some tactics I can teach you about.

[K Frame]

Hum...

Lots of annoying hippies on bicycles.

Sounds like a target-rich environment to me.

[Tallpine]

I bet these bikers wouldn't try to take on an F-350 Super Duty Diesel Crew-cab Dually like that

[K Frame]

I bet had they tried to take on my Subaru like that there would have been more of them with Micheline prints on their anatomy.

[Bigjake]

This article just re justified my 35" Mickey Thompson's....

[MillCreek]

Based on the editorial comments in the local papers and the local blogs, public opinion in the Seattle area seems to be against the antics of Critical Mass.  The local CM branch has disabled to ability to post in their forums, apparently the volume of comments were making the server crash.

[K Frame]

Those stupid car people in Seattle!

They just don't UNDERSTAND!

IT'S FOR THE PLANET! IT'S FOR MOTHER EARTH!

[mtnbkr]

At least originally, CM wasn't about the environment, it was about creating awareness and visibility for cyclists in urban areas.  Our version of the motorcyclists' campaign to be seen while on the road.  Unfortunately, it became co-opted by the radical fringe.

Chris

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

At least originally, CM wasn't about the environment, it was about creating awareness and visibility for cyclists in urban areas.  Our version of the motorcyclists' campaign to be seen while on the road.  Unfortunately, it became co-opted by the radical fringe.

Chris

Yeah, Critical Mass as originally conceived was a good idea.  Unfortunately, like many good ideas, it got perverted by fringe wackos.

[K Frame]

BUT

IT'S

FOR

MOTHER

EARTH!!!

[mtnbkr]

No
IT
IS
NOT

[HankB]

Hunger strikes (if you're brave and healthy)

Would anyone really CARE if someone they oppose decided to harm themselves? I wouldn't. In fact, I'd encourage people like Chuck Schumer, Barack Hussein Obama, Michael Moore, those two batty female senators from California, etc., to go on a hunger strike.

and outright civil disobedience (peaceful, of  course), are some tactics I can teach you about.

We did this on a number of occasions in high school - "nonviolent noncompliance" we called it - when the school's teachers, administrators, or athletic coaches tried to do things that went well beyond their authority.

[K Frame]

No
IT
IS
NOT

YOU CAR CENTRIST NAZI!

[Sawdust]

Oh-oh, Godwin invoked.

Why do you guys hate America? 

Sawdust

[Regolith]

Oh-oh, Godwin invoked.

Why do you guys hate America? 

Sawdust

We don't hate America, just it's traditions, legal foundation, government, and Wal Mart. [/granola muncher]

 

[gunsmith]

Hello again everybody, I see you all got a long fine without me.

I used to be an anarchist,( I still am except now I vote conservative and have found God.)
I helped organize the first critical mass in San Francisco in the early 1990's.

One of my goals was to illustrate how bad traffic would be if every bike rider followed every law.
In the early 90's it was simply a ride home together all at the same time.
No more of a protest then rush hour, the difference was 500 bikers, stopping for a red light going up hill
and stopping for every stop sign meant that that the car behind us gets to go as fast as a bike that has lost momentum.
The chief complaint against us bike messengers had been that we ignored stop signs and red lights.
The complainers failed to understand that the biker that stops on a hill still has to stay on the road, and went from going 10-15mph to 2-5mph, you're stuck behind a much slower vehicle.

I really understand both sides of the story, as a cyclist I routinely saw police always taking the side of the motorist, even though they used a 3 ton vehicle as a weapon simply because they were irked at the cyclist in front of them pedaling as fast as they could while obeying laws meant for vehicles that can go 25 mph without the operator getting exhausted.
Bikes and cars are not meant to share the same road, if this was utopia we could all get along I guess.

As a cab driver I definetly got to see the other side of the coin, a lot of the current crop of cm'ers are rude for rudness sake.
I extend every courtesy possible and they still give me the finger.

Most of the bike messengers in San Francisco stopped attending, the problem is now it is chic to have the messenger look.
scruffy, bike bag and bike...so no one can tell a professional from a weekend warrior.

Most people do not realize that the car they drive has enormus potential as a weapon, they have no problem with menacing and threatening bikers.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.

Modern "anarchist" are now simply kids with issues, taking out their dysfunctional family issues out on society because
they have no other outlet and know knowledge of history, psychology, addiction or due process.

I was serious when I was a young punk rock anarchist, I researched Haymarket, knew about the labor struggles of the late 19th century, read Kropotkin and Emma G, Engles etc.
Today being an anarchist means ripped dirty jeans and pierced genetalia.

Todays critical mass participant doesn't understand getting home to your home 30 miles away to let the baby sitter go home
and the modern motorist doesn't know how difficult it is to be a second class citizen simply because you can't afford a car and you're riding a bike.

[Balog]

Gunsmith! Welcome back dude; how's life in San Fran treating ya?

[Regolith]

Most people do not realize that the car they drive has enormus potential as a weapon, they have no problem with menacing and threatening bikers.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.

See, this is something that has been annoying me every time these threads come up.  Some biker decides to generalize and say almost every person who drives a car is a maniac who enjoys menacing bikers just because.

It simply ain't true. 

First, I don't do it, and neither does anyone else I know.  Now, the law of averages being what it is, as well as pure statistical chance would dictate that if MOST people who drove a car liked to menace bikers, then I'd at least know one person who does.  I don't.  Every person I know gives bikers a wide berth. The law of statistics would also dictate that I'd have seen at least one incident of a person menacing a biker.  I haven't.  Except on YouTube, and that stupid prick got what was coming to him.

Being a driver myself, this annoys the living crap out of me because not only are you stereotyping to a very wide degree, but you are (purposely or not) including me within that stereotype.  Unacceptable.

Not only that, but you're also saying that everyone who comes close to (or does) cause an accident with a biker was doing it on purpose.  No doubt there are a few who do, but it is far more likely that the vast majority were caused by inattention either by the biker or the driver, rather than malice.

So yeah, I'd kindly ask that this type of stereotyping be dropped, because it isn't accurate, and it isn't conducive to the conversation.  It'd be the equivalent of a car driver saying to you that EVERY biker was like the guys in the original article.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Most people do not realize that the car they drive has enormus potential as a weapon, they have no problem with menacing and threatening bikers.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.

See, this is something that has been annoying me every time these threads come up.  Some biker decides to generalize and say almost every person who drives a car is a maniac who enjoys menacing bikers just because.

It simply ain't true. 

First, I don't do it, and neither does anyone else I know.  Now, the law of averages being what it is, as well as pure statistical chance would dictate that if MOST people who drove a car liked to menace bikers, then I'd at least know one person who does.  I don't.  Every person I know gives bikers a wide berth. The law of statistics would also dictate that I'd have seen at least one incident of a person menacing a biker.  I haven't.  Except on YouTube, and that stupid prick got what was coming to him.

Being a driver myself, this annoys the living crap out of me because not only are you stereotyping to a very wide degree, but you are (purposely or not) including me within that stereotype.  Unacceptable.

Not only that, but you're also saying that everyone who comes close to (or does) cause an accident with a biker was doing it on purpose.  No doubt there are a few who do, but it is far more likely that the vast majority were caused by inattention either by the biker or the driver, rather than malice.

So yeah, I'd kindly ask that this type of stereotyping be dropped, because it isn't accurate, and it isn't conducive to the conversation.  It'd be the equivalent of a car driver saying to you that EVERY biker was like the guys in the original article.

He didn't say all drivers behave that way.  He didn't say that you drive that way.  So lay off.

He said that most drivers behave that way.  He's absolutely correct.  As a cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that far, far too many drives don't fully respect the dangers posed by their 2 ton steel killing machines.

[HankB]

. . . He said that most drivers behave that way.  He's absolutely correct.  As a cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that far, far too many drives don't fully respect the dangers posed by their 2 ton steel killing machines.

And as a motorist, I can vouch for the fact that far too many cyclists don't fully realize that bicycles ought not be ridden on some roads, particularly those with heavy/high speed traffic.

Now, I don't want to run over a biker, clip one with a rear-view mirror, or force him off the road - I try to give them plenty of space.

Even if they are idiots for riding on a highway.

Even if they obstruct traffic because they can't keep up.

Even if they are so full of smug self-rightousness that they enjoy obstructing traffic.

I figure that eventually, their karma will catch up to them. And when they try to occupy the same patch of road at the same time as a soccer mommie driving a Suburban with one hand while holding a cell phone to her other ear, they just may get to win that Darwin award they're trying so hard to get after all.

It happens pretty often around the Austin, TX area . . . and from talking to a couple of local cops, in the majority of the cases, it seems to be the biker's own, well, foolishness that contributed to the collision.

Summing up, even if some bikers are idiots, I don't want to be the one that helps them meet their maker.

But I won't shed a tear when it happens.