Author Topic: More Global Warming Skeptics  (Read 80815 times)

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2007, 07:19:45 AM »
PROOF of why - anthropogenic global warming claims to have done that - in my sight it has not.

And that's what the crux of this disagreement comes down to. Your expertise is what?

1.  10+ years installing, maintaining, modifying and running models and simulations - which, after all, are what Anthropgenic Global Warming is supposedly "proved" by.
2.  A high school/colege level understanding of science and the scientific method.
3.  45+ years of life, which have profoundly refined my "B.S." detector...
4.  Exposure to 45+ years of junk science, Malthusism, the disaster lobby, and other assorted feats of doom-and-gloom Chicken Littlism.

Quote
Your justification for your opinions (when they run contrary to understood and received science) is what?

NONE of AGW is "understood and received" - even if it were, THATS NOT HOW SCIENCE WORKS!  But since YOU assert it is, let me reference a few scientists that think it isn't:

Geophysicist Dr. Claude Allegre, a top geophysicist and French Socialist who has authored more than 100 scientific articles and written 11 books and received numerous scientific awards including the Goldschmidt Medal from the Geochemical Society of the United States, converted from climate alarmist to skeptic in 2006. Allegre, who was one of the first scientists to sound global warming fears 20 years ago, now says the cause of climate change is "unknown" and accused the prophets of doom of global warming of being motivated by money, noting that "the ecology of helpless protesting has become a very lucrative business for some people!" Glaciers chronicles or historical archives point to the fact that climate is a capricious phenomena. This fact is confirmed by mathematical meteorological theories. So, let us be cautious, Allegre explained in a September 21, 2006 article in the French newspaper L'EXPRESS

Geologist Bruno Wiskel of the University of Alberta recently reversed his view of man-made climate change and instead  became such a strong skeptic, that he recently wrote a book titled The Emperor's New Climate: Debunking the Myth of Global Warming.  He said he realized global warming theory was full of holes and red flags, and became convinced that humans are not responsible for rising temperatures.  Wiskel also said that global warming has gone "from a science to a religion and noted that research money is being funneled into promoting climate alarmism instead of funding areas he considers more worthy. "If you funnel money into things that can't be changed, the money is not going into the places that it is needed, he said.

Astrophysicist Dr. Nir Shaviv, one of Israel's top young award winning scientists, recanted his belief that manmade emissions were driving climate change. "Solar activity can explain a large part of the 20th-century global warming", he said.  Shaviv believes that even a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere by 2100 "will not dramatically increase the global temperature." Even if we halved the CO2 output, and the CO2 increase by 2100 would be, say, a 50% increase relative to today instead of a doubled amount, the expected reduction in the rise of global temperature would be less than 0.5C. This is not significant,  Shaviv believes there will be more scientists converting to man-made global warming skepticism as they discover the dearth of evidence. I think this is common to many of the scientists who think like us (that is, that CO2 is a secondary climate driver). Each one of us was working in his or her own niche. While working there, each one of us realized that things just don't add up to support the AGW (Anthropogenic Global Warming) picture. So many had to change their views,

Mathematician & engineer Dr. David Evans, who did carbon accounting for the Australian Government, recently detailed his conversion to a skeptic. I devoted six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian government to estimate carbon emissions from land use change and forestry. When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty conclusive, but since then new evidence has weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause. I am now skeptical.  As Lord Keynes famously said, When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"


I can list a lot morescientists...its not just Lindzen.  Its not just me saying it:

Paleoclimatologist Tim Patterson, of Carlton University in Ottawa converted from believer in C02 driving the climate change to a skeptic.Patterson says his conversion probably cost me a lot of grant money. However, as a scientist I go where the science takes me and not were activists want me to go. Patterson now asserts that more and more scientists are converting to climate skeptics.  "When I go to a scientific meeting, there's lots of opinion out there, there's lots of discussion (about climate change). I was at the Geological Society of America meeting in Philadelphia in the fall and I would say that people with my opinion were probably in the majority,


(Maybe I'm wrong - perhaps the science is "understood and received" - just not the way YOU think it is...)



Quote
Saying 'Lindzen agrees with me' is not good enough. Lindzen might be absolutely right and thus you might be absolutely right - but you have given no justification as to why you (and thus Lindzen et al) should be believed and the (massive preponderance, and that's not controversial) of contrary evidence dismissed.

Lindsen litterally WROTE THE BOOK on satellite IR measurements - thats WHY he should be believed.  If Boing Aircraft sez "Don't exceed mach 0.95 in a 747-300", you might ought to believe the guys that BUILT it.  Plus to assert that the evidence to the contrary is a "massive perponderance" and not "controversial' is a lie.  How many AGW SKEPTICS have converted into BELIEVERS (scientists, mathmeticians and the like, those that can really understand the evidence) in the last 5 years, verses how many BELIEVERS are now SKEPTICS.  The trend is NOT going in YOUR direction.

Quote
The matter isn't closed, but he is saying that even if you have some apparently relevant expertise you're still not in any position to go beyond the bounds of your expertise or express strong opinions beyond your own ability to back them up. I'd probably not have phrased it quite like that, discuss is one thing, strong opinions are quite another.


Horespucky is horsepucky is horsepucky.  You can't polish a turd, and you don't need more than a basic college level understanding of math, physics, and statistics to see AGW for the pile of rubbish it is.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2007, 07:25:10 AM »
I've learned a long time ago that with millions of scientists, countless mental diseases, old age, political ideology, and tens of millions of industry bribe money (especially in climate change) that calls to authority mean little or nothing.  Seitz is the perfect example.


You mean like this industry stooge:

Botanist Dr. David Bellamy, a famed UK environmental campaigner, former lecturer at Durham University and host of a popular UK TV series on wildlife, recently converted into a skeptic after reviewing the science and now calls global warming fears "poppycock." According to a May 15, 2005 article in the UK Sunday Times, Bellamy said global warming is largely a natural phenomenon.  The world is wasting stupendous amounts of money on trying to fix something that cant be fixed. The climate-change people have no proof for their claims. They have computer models which do not prove anything, Bellamy added. Bellamys conversion on global warming did not come without a sacrifice as several environmental groups have ended their association with him because of his views on climate change. The severing of relations came despite Bellamys long activism for green campaigns. The UK Times reported Bellamy won respect from hardline environmentalists with his campaigns to save Britains peat bogs and other endangered habitats. In Tasmania he was arrested when he tried to prevent loggers cutting down a rainforest.

...wonder how much industrial bribe money it took for him to destroy his career, dissolve almost all of his life-long associations, and cause him apparently to abandon his life's work....

Quote
Well, sometime within the next 48 hours I hope to post a link that will hopefully make this argument (and Jaworowski) seem silly.


Was Jaworoski ALWAYS "silly", even back when he BELIEVED in anthropogenic climate change?  Or did he only become "silly" when he changed his position and stopped agreeing with you?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2007, 08:25:18 AM »
Trying to keep everything in one thread:

Richyoung insists it's the sun:

If you have proof that it is the sun I suggest you show it.

Lets see:

1.  Jupiter is developing a second Red Spot - a giant hurricane believed to be caused by Jovian ... Global Warming.  Dr. Imke de Pater of Berkeley University says some parts of Jupiter are now as much as six degrees Celsius warmer than just a few years ago.

2.  Neptune's moon, Triton, studied in 1989 after the unmanned Voyageur probe flew past, seems to have heated up significantly since then. Parts of its frozen nitrogen surface have begun melting and turning to gas, making Triton's atmosphere denser.

3.  Pluto has warmed 3 degrees Celsius in recent years - from -233 to -230 degrees.

4.  Mar's icecaps are melting.

5.  Almost forgot - the Earth is getting (slightly) warmer.

...now, according to Iain, since I'm just a plain ol' Unix system administrator specializing in modeling and simulations, with a previous career supporting U.S. Army development and research, I am in  *NO WAY * qualified to have an opinion or question the "settled science" of my intellectual superiors, but please indulge me, I humbly beseach:

Those "other" planets (i.e., "not Earth") are NOT getting warmer because I drive an SUV or get my electricity from a coal-fired plant - those things aren't ON the other planets that show signs of warming.  So we have one of two possibilities:

1.  The other planets are warming for some unknown reason, and Earth is NOT warming for that unknown reason, but rather due to mankind's generation of a minor greenhouse gas, CO2.  (This position is consistent with the theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming).

2.  The Earth and the other planets in the solar system are getting warmer for the same reason.  This is the AGW Skeptic position, and also the one that Occam's Razor would predict to be more likely to be true.

What do the warming Solar System bodies have in common?  NOT man, but rather the big ball of fusion in the sky.   What do scientists say about the possibility that solar radiation is responsible?


Quote
For the past century and a half, Earth has been warming. Coincidentally (or perhaps not so coincidentally), during that same period, our sun has been brightening, becoming more active, sending out more radiation.

Habibullah Abdussamatov of the Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in St. Petersburg, Sami Solanki of the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Germany, Sallie Baliunas and Willie Soon of the Solar and Stellar Physics Division of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and a host of the rest of the world's leading solar scientists are all convinced that the warming of recent years is not unusual and that nearly all the warming in the past 150 years can be attributed to the sun.

Solar scientists from Iowa to Siberia have overlaid the last several warm periods on our planet with known variations in our sun's activity and found, according to Mr. Solanki, "a near-perfect match."

Mr. Abdussamatov concedes manmade gasses may have made "a small contribution to the warming in recent years, but it cannot compete with the increase in solar irradiance."

Mr. Soon showed as long ago as the mid-1990s that the depth of the Little Ice Age -- the coldest period in the northern hemisphere in the past 1,500 years -- corresponded perfectly with a solar event known as the Maunder Minimum. For nearly seven decades there was virtually no sunspot activity.

Our sun was particular quiet. And for those 60 to 70 years, the northern half of our globe, at least, was in a deep freeze.

Is it so hard to believe then that the sun could be causing our current warming, too?


Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Iain

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,490
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2007, 08:48:53 AM »
Horespucky is horsepucky is horsepucky.  You can't polish a turd, and you don't need more than a basic college level understanding of math, physics, and statistics to see AGW for the pile of rubbish it is.

When wacki says something similar he/she means that someone with that level of education can understand the science, not dismiss one side in their entirety on the basis of that level of education.

As many do, on 'both sides' you continue to appeal to authority. The opinions of these authorities are interesting and they are entirely possibly correct. They in fact may be correct, but despite claims to expertise the lay person should evaluate where these authorities fall in their own fields. To claim that your authorities are anything more than a minority in their field is incorrect. You do not know that they are correct, to assert they are correct in the face of other authorities that disagree, and to claim false expertise is to risk the label of crank. No-one called them your 'superiors', but they don't go around telling you your job.

Appeals to authority are common in this debate, because we should be reliant on authorities. What we should not be is very highly selective of the authorities that we chose to rely upon. This link (note, not an authority but bound to be scrupulously up to date considering the voracity of internet debate) lists all the scientists with a broadly defined relevant expertise who have publicly opposed the IPCC assessment. There are not very many, and you have cited most of them - you rely on their expertise over all others. You have not, and I suspect will not, accept contrary opinions and that cannot be on the basis of your expertise or genuine understanding.

To ignore the contrary opinion, the vast amounts of scientific analysis and peer-reviewed and signatories to the IPCC reports based on your own expertise, your reliance on chosen authorities and dismissal of the IPCC based on your perceptions of them as biased is not a sustainable position for a non-expert.

In matters like this you can be right for the right reasons (expertise), right for the wrong reasons (deferral to authorities who happen to be right), wrong for the right reasons (contrary expertise) and wrong for the wrong reasons (deferral to authorities who happen to be wrong). Only time will tell if you are right or wrong on the matter at stake, but either way it will be for the wrong reasons. Because that would also be true of any strong opinion I held, I'll not take the risk.
I do not like, when with me play, and I think that you also

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2007, 08:55:02 AM »
Quote
To ignore the contrary opinion, the vast amounts of scientific analysis and peer-reviewed and signatories to the IPCC reports based on your own expertise, your reliance on chosen authorities and dismissal of the IPCC based on your perceptions of them as biased is not a sustainable position for a non-expert.

In matters like this you can be right for the right reasons (expertise), right for the wrong reasons (deferral to authorities who happen to be right), wrong for the right reasons (contrary expertise) and wrong for the wrong reasons (deferral to authorities who happen to be wrong). Only time will tell if you are right or wrong on the matter at stake, but either way it will be for the wrong reasons. Because that would also be true of any strong opinion I held, I'll not take the risk.

He listed several other reasons other than "appeal to authority".

Basic logic being one.  Prior experience with similar extremity of claims by some of the same types of authorities being another. 

Like it or not, this controversy is not taking place in some "pure science" vacuum.  There is palpably and demonstrably money, reputation and economic and political power on the line.  That means "authorities" can be assessed based on far more than their professional qualifications and abstract opinions but also on what statements they make not directly related to their field and the larger consequences of said statements.

 
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2007, 09:22:37 AM »
Horespucky is horsepucky is horsepucky.  You can't polish a turd, and you don't need more than a basic college level understanding of math, physics, and statistics to see AGW for the pile of rubbish it is.

When wacki says something similar he/she means that someone with that level of education can understand the science, not dismiss one side in their entirety on the basis of that level of education.

As many do, on 'both sides' you continue to appeal to authority. The opinions of these authorities are interesting and they are entirely possibly correct. They in fact may be correct, but despite claims to expertise the lay person should evaluate where these authorities fall in their own fields. To claim that your authorities are anything more than a minority in their field is incorrect.

Which way is the trend?  How many notable, famous AGW proponents are NOW skeptics?

Quote
You do not know that they are correct, to assert they are correct in the face of other authorities that disagree, and to claim false expertise is to risk the label of crank.

The authorities * I * cite are in concurence with MY OWN determination after looking at the evidence, and the AGW proponents sketchy history of accuracy.  I cite them for TWO reasons:

1.  Because you, and Wacki, repeatedly and falsely claim there is no signifigant disagreement in the scientific community with the AGW theory.  OK - how much dissent must there be before that dissent is "signifigant"?  I submit that with recent converts, that threshold has been passed.
2.  To show that scientists and authorities with more direct experience in the fields involved have reached the SAME CONCLUSIONS as me, redcucing the likelyhood that I am some kind of "crank".


Quote
No-one called them your 'superiors', but they don't go around telling you your job.

NO. they don't do that.  YOU go around telling people they shouldn't have a sttrong opinion on an issue of scientific doubt that potentialy will drastically re-order their lives, whether it is true and acted upon or otherwise.  Sorry, democracy doesn;t work that way.

Quote
Appeals to authority are common in this debate, because we should be reliant on authorities. What we should not be is very highly selective of the authorities that we chose to rely upon
.

I have not denied or diminished the undeniable fact that there are many scientists etc. that disagree with what I have determined about AGW - as noted above, 'tis you and wacki that do that.

Quote
This link (note, not an authority but bound to be scrupulously up to date considering the voracity of internet debate) lists all the scientists with a broadly defined relevant expertise who have publicly opposed the IPCC assessment. There are not very many, and you have cited most of them - you rely on their expertise over all others. You have not, and I suspect will not, accept contrary opinions and that cannot be on the basis of your expertise or genuine understanding.


Nor is it.  I understand what a monumental task it is to "take the temperature of the Earth", and I understand what a short slice of time we have data that can even arguably approximate such to the degree sensative enough to pick up any signal of climate change.  I also understand that the ocean is huge, complex, and just know responding to changes that occured hundreds and thousands of years ago.  Primarily, these means that EVEN IF AGW as a theory was "true", there is NOT SUFFICIENT DATA yet in evidence to PROVE it, much less determine what % of warming is the effect of man.  Extraordinary claims on scanty evidence are not smart things to base policy on.

Quote
To ignore the contrary opinion, the vast amounts of scientific analysis and peer-reviewed and signatories to the IPCC reports based on your own expertise, your reliance on chosen authorities and dismissal of the IPCC based on your perceptions of them as biased is not a sustainable position for a non-expert.

Wrong is wrong - it doesn't matter how many people agree that the moon is made of green cheese - it isn't.
Quote
In matters like this you can be right for the right reasons (expertise), right for the wrong reasons (deferral to authorities who happen to be right), wrong for the right reasons (contrary expertise) and wrong for the wrong reasons (deferral to authorities who happen to be wrong). Only time will tell if you are right or wrong on the matter at stake, but either way it will be for the wrong reasons. Because that would also be true of any strong opinion I held, I'll not take the risk.

...or I could be right because logic, experience, and Occam's Razor all indicate I'm right, dispite your thinly vieled smarmy evaluation to the contrary.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #131 on: May 24, 2007, 02:41:13 PM »
since iain opened the ball maybe he and wacki could enloighten us as to their ackground?  my basic source is kin  . he worked on those models since back when they used punch cards in computers.  and he laughs when you talk global warming is man caused. he also chuckled about the jet contrails ice age.  as do most of his colleagues. had dinner with 4 guys with almost 15 years of meteorology experience 3 phds and 5 masters between em and they had a laugh about gores movie 

wacki

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
Three simple questions, please answer them
« Reply #132 on: May 24, 2007, 03:29:30 PM »
This thread is degrading into a directionless mess so I will try to pin it down.  Richyoung, please answer these questions:


Question #1:

Which way is the trend?  How many notable, famous AGW proponents are NOW skeptics?
..... I submit that with recent converts, that threshold has been passed.

Like Jaworowski?  Just because inhofe & morano (who you have been quoting)

http://tinyurl.com/yohf45

and apparently Jaworowski himself say he's a recent convert doesn't make it so.  If you did a simple google search you will find out that he had been debating the ice core record in 1992, claimed an ice age was coming four years ago in 2003,  and called global warming a foly in 1999.  Here is a paper he wrote in 1997 titled:

ANOTHER GLOBAL WARMING FRAUD EXPOSED
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/2006_articles/IceCoreSprg97.pdf

Is 10 years really a recent convert? His lies are so obvious yet you insist that he's credible.  So I will ask you, do you honestly think he's a "recent" convert?

Question #2:
Quote
1.  Because you, and Wacki, repeatedly and falsely claim there is no signifigant disagreement in the scientific community with the AGW theory.  OK - how much dissent must there be before that dissent is "signifigant"?

I'd say 10% would be significant. But I will make it easy on you.  You say you can find a lot more climate change skeptics.  Well there are 15,000 practicing climatologists that are members of the AGU.  I challenge you to prove 2% of those are skeptics.  Or if you want a handicap I'll let you include all AGU climatologists at a number of 20,000. (not very many europeans are members of the AGU)  If you are able to come up with 400 names of AGU members w/ relevant Ph.D's you will get an op-ed in the WSJ and you will surely be able to get $10,000 out of Exxon:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/01/oil-lobby-payments/

So, do you think you have what it takes to win that 10K prize?
Heck, 1% at 150 scientists (american) or 200 (handicapped European) would almost certainly get you that 10K.  Please keep in mind that Naomi Oreskes wasn't able to find a single peer reviewed journal that disagreed with the consensus from 1993-2003.  Benny Peiser who claimed fraud eventually admitted, after two years, that only one of his papers was anti-consensus and that wasn't even peer reviewed.  So I wish you the best of luck!


Question #3:
I posted a question here:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg115747#msg115747

That was independent of ice cores.  Would you consider Jaworowski credible if he claimed the ancient glass tube

was more accurate than the Siemens Ultramat nondispersive Infrared Gas Analyzer?


 Please answer this simple question.



Iain

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,490
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #133 on: May 25, 2007, 12:20:57 AM »
He listed several other reasons other than "appeal to authority".

Basic logic being one.  Prior experience with similar extremity of claims by some of the same types of authorities being another. 
Basic logic would never be accepted as a claim to knowledge in other technical fields. If this thread was about brain surgery it would have lasted about three posts because few would regard any experience other than brain surgery as valid, even tangentially related fields of expertise such as orthopedic surgery.

Despite the repeated insistence and misrepresentation there have been few extreme previous claims. I know there is a strong 'anti-environmentalist' movement, it accuses Carson of being responsible for more deaths than Hitler so I have little time for it. We should have clearly established the global cooling fallacy - even when it was predicted by scientific sources they clearly stated that they thought we might be coming to the end of an interglacial period, thus it would take several thousand years for ice sheets to descend, and even then, despite selective quoting, we see that understanding of the man's potential role was there and was a potential cause for concern. There was no imminent disaster predicted by scientists and accepted by the community at all.

Right now I'm working on incorporating a charity. It involves legal matters and needs an understanding of those aspects of the law. I'm not about to express strong opinions on divorce law based on that experience. I have a friend who knows a good deal about divorce law, he is a solicitor, but if he expresses strong and unusual opinions about divorce law I do not adopt them as my own, even if I reached those same conclusions 'on my own.' I'm not a divorce lawyer, my expertise is not valid enough to hold strong opinions. If I have an interest in divorce law there should be no bar to my discussion of it I agree, my tone and claims should reflect my expertise however. This would not be controversial if we were talking about divorce law, relativity or neurosurgery.

So cassandrasdaddy, I've clearly stated that I don't adopt views on global warming any more, other than to say that with the state of climatological opinion as it clearly is, to adopt views that reject the mainstream opinion based on no valid expertise is not a sustainable position for a non-expert. I'm not an expert, nor am I educated beyond an interest in this field, I don't argue science specifics unless really outlandish claims are made. Your anecdote is interesting, but take a trip over to realclimate, there are plenty of climatologists there who don't agree with your acquaintances or kin, thus you have made a choice about your authorities and if it were me, I'd need to justify that to myself.

wacki - I appreciate I've veered this away from science, but I'm trying to get to what I think is the heart of heated public debate on almost any technical scientific matter.
I do not like, when with me play, and I think that you also

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Three simple questions, please answer them
« Reply #134 on: May 25, 2007, 04:55:09 AM »
This thread is degrading into a directionless mess so I will try to pin it down.  Richyoung, please answer these questions:


Question #1:

Which way is the trend?  How many notable, famous AGW proponents are NOW skeptics?
..... I submit that with recent converts, that threshold has been passed.

Like Jaworowski?  Just because inhofe & morano (who you have been quoting)

http://tinyurl.com/yohf45

and apparently Jaworowski himself say he's a recent convert doesn't make it so.  If you did a simple google search you will find out that he had been debating the ice core record in 1992, claimed an ice age was coming four years ago in 2003,  and called global warming a foly in 1999.  Here is a paper he wrote in 1997 titled:

ANOTHER GLOBAL WARMING FRAUD EXPOSED
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/2006_articles/IceCoreSprg97.pdf

Is 10 years really a recent convert? His lies are so obvious yet you insist that he's credible.  So I will ask you, do you honestly think he's a "recent" convert?

I did not label "Jaws" a recent convert - I asked YOU if he was "silly" back when he BELIEVED in anthropogenic climate change - which was back in the 1970's, when he thought mankind's generation of dust and particulates would trigger a new Ice Age.   YOU still haven't answered that one...

Quote
Question #2:
Quote
1.  Because you, and Wacki, repeatedly and falsely claim there is no signifigant disagreement in the scientific community with the AGW theory.  OK - how much dissent must there be before that dissent is "signifigant"?

I'd say 10% would be significant. But I will make it easy on you.  You say you can find a lot more climate change skeptics.  Well there are 15,000 practicing climatologists that are members of the AGU.  I challenge you to prove 2% of those are skeptics.  Or if you want a handicap I'll let you include all AGU climatologists at a number of 20,000. (not very many europeans are members of the AGU)  If you are able to come up with 400 names of AGU members w/ relevant Ph.D's you will get an op-ed in the WSJ and you will surely be able to get $10,000 out of Exxon:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/01/oil-lobby-payments/

So, do you think you have what it takes to win that 10K prize?
Heck, 1% at 150 scientists (american) or 200 (handicapped European) would almost certainly get you that 10K.  Please keep in mind that Naomi Oreskes wasn't able to find a single peer reviewed journal that disagreed with the consensus from 1993-2003.  Benny Peiser who claimed fraud eventually admitted, after two years, that only one of his papers was anti-consensus and that wasn't even peer reviewed.  So I wish you the best of luck!

Not my job man.  Nor would you be convinced if I did.  You are a true believer.

I pose you a counter-challenge - find me a recent convert from skeptic to believer on this issue with a scientific background - as you should know, as more and more evidence comes in , more and more scientists recant.  THE TREND IS NOT IN YOUR DIRECTION.  And you still haven't answered why the other planets in the Solar System are heating up.


Quote
Question #3:
I posted a question here:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg115747#msg115747

That was independent of ice cores.  Would you consider Jaworowski credible if he claimed the ancient glass tube

was more accurate than the Siemens Ultramat nondispersive Infrared Gas Analyzer?


 Please answer this simple question.

Depends on what you are using them for, what you are using them on.  I can certainly envision circumstances where the more sophisticated equipment can be spoofed or fooled.  I'm going to fall back on Iain's position, and say since Jaws (and, coincidentally, not you or me) is the climatologist, that's HIS call.

NOW - how about YOU answer a few questions:

1.  Why are other planets and orbital bodies in the Solar System getting warmer as well?
2.  Those ice cores you are always discussing - they show CO2 LAGS behind increasing temp - by as much as 1000 years.  What does that say about CO2 as a global warming cause?
3.  Even GW believers admit that water vapor is by far the most signifigant green house gas.  What percentage of Earth' s warming do you assign to water vapor?  Does that include cloud reflectivity?  BTW, values as high as 85% have been advanced by the scientific community.
4.  What percentage of Earth's green house effect do YOU believe is due to CO2?
5.  ONLY three data streams for attempting to approximate Earth's over-all temperature exist:  ground observations, balloon measurements, and satellite IR observation.  Of the three, only ONE, ground measurements, agrees closely with the numbers that AGW should be genereating.  It is also the most problematical.  Why do you believe it, over the generally-accepted as more accurate balloon and satellite data, which, BTW, agree pretty closely with each other?
6.  Where, in Mann's famous "hockey stick" graph, is the Midieval Warm Period?  Why isn't it there?  Would you accept such sloppy science (or deliberatet deception) from an AGW skeptic?
7.  According to AGW, the atmosphere should be getting warmer at levels that it isn;t.  How come?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

wacki

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
Re: Three simple questions, please answer them
« Reply #135 on: May 25, 2007, 07:17:03 AM »
I did not label "Jaws" a recent convert

My bad, it was Ron.  Still doesn't change much.

Quote
- I asked YOU if he was "silly" back when he BELIEVED in anthropogenic climate change - which was back in the 1970's, when he thought mankind's generation of dust and particulates would trigger a new Ice Age.   YOU still haven't answered that one...

Aerosols and particulates are a negative feedback that block out sunlight.  So yes, they can cause cooling.  How much light could be blocked was unknown in the 70s as there were no studies on aerosols back then. The assessment report by the NAS of sciences in 1974 was dead on the money.  As for Jaworowski, he has always made outlandish claims.  He claimed an ice age was coming four years ago.  Back in 1994 he wrote a paper called: "The Posthumous Papers of Leaded Gasoline."  And the oil companies, and strangely enough the tobacco companies, have certainly been fighting the concept of global warming before then.  It would be interesting to see what happens if the courts force Exxon and the API to open their books like they did with tobacco.
Quote
Quote
Question #2:
Quote
1.  Because you, and Wacki, repeatedly and falsely claim there is no signifigant disagreement in the scientific community with the AGW theory.  OK - how much dissent must there be before that dissent is "signifigant"?

...  I challenge you to prove 2% of those are skeptics.  Or if you want a handicap I'll let you include all AGU climatologists at a number of 20,000. (not very many europeans are members of the AGU)  ...
Heck, 1% at 150 scientists (american) or 200 (handicapped European) would almost certainly get you that 10K.  ....

Not my job man.

If you can't backup your statements with proof then I suggest you don't make them at all.


Quote
I pose you a counter-challenge - find me a recent convert from skeptic to believer on this issue with a scientific background - as you should know, as more and more evidence comes in , more and more scientists recant.
 

According to Oreskes there wasn't a single consensus doubting paper from 1993-2003.  If something was obvious to just about everyone in 1993 it's going to be hard for me to find a convert.

Quote
THE TREND IS NOT IN YOUR DIRECTION.

Can I ask for proof?  Or is that not your job either?


Quote
And you still haven't answered why the other planets in the Solar System are heating up.

Yes I did.  And so did Ian.  We used different sources too.  Search for the keyword "mars"

Quote
Depends on what you are using them for, what you are using them on.  I can certainly envision circumstances where the more sophisticated equipment can be spoofed or fooled.




The black dots are the glass tube readings that "Jaws" endorses.  The red line is the Siemens Ultramat nondispersive Infrared Gas Analyzer.  The Ultramat takes readings which are accurate to less than 1ppm.  The glass tube device can claim the CO2 content of the atmosphere can double not only from year to year but within 5 minutes.  (do I really need to explain the insane quantity of CO2 it takes to do that?) Which readings do you think are more accurate?  These are the exact readings that "Jaws" debates.

BTW, there are dozens of ways to double check the CO2 readings.  One of the easiest ways is to measure the carbonic acid content of the ocean.  Would you like to guess which readings are deemed accurate and which ones aren't?

Once we settle this Jaws thing then we can move on to your 7 questions.  If you can't understand something as simple as CO2 content then it's really not worth discussing anything else.  This is very very basic stuff.  The highschool nearest to where I'm sitting right now teaches the science behind CO2 measurements.

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Three simple questions, please answer them
« Reply #136 on: May 25, 2007, 08:05:31 AM »

Quote
- I asked YOU if he was "silly" back when he BELIEVED in anthropogenic climate change - which was back in the 1970's, when he thought mankind's generation of dust and particulates would trigger a new Ice Age.   YOU still haven't answered that one...

Aerosols and particulates are a negative feedback that block out sunlight.  So yes, they can cause cooling.  How much light could be blocked was unknown in the 70s as there were no studies on aerosols back then. The assessment report by the NAS of sciences in 1974 was dead on the money.  As for Jaworowski, he has always made outlandish claims.  He claimed an ice age was coming four years ago.  Back in 1994 he wrote a paper called: "The Posthumous Papers of Leaded Gasoline."  And the oil companies, and strangely enough the tobacco companies, have certainly been fighting the concept of global warming before then.  It would be interesting to see what happens if the courts force Exxon and the API to open their books like they did with tobacco.
[/quote]

So you admit an anthropogenic climate change advocate can be just as "silly" as a skeptic, right?

Quote
Quote

Not my job man.

If you can't backup your statements with proof then I suggest you don't make them at all.

If only your side would hold to that standard....

Lets review your debate tactic - inititially, you claim that there is NO opposition to Global Warming theory, then when LISTS of prominent scientists, some of whom used to be AGW advocates, your tactic is to claim they are all kkoks, industry stooges, and an (arbitrarily) insignifigant number.  Then you expect * ME * to answer dome prepsterous "question" about percentages of societies that I have no access to.  Bullpucky.  Prominent scientist not only disagree with AGW - that number is INCREASING as more data comes in - which is what I've been saying all along - that the data at present doesn;t support it, and the case for it is getting weaker as time goes by.

Quote
Quote
I pose you a counter-challenge - find me a recent convert from skeptic to believer on this issue with a scientific background - as you should know, as more and more evidence comes in , more and more scientists recant.
 

According to Oreskes there wasn't a single consensus doubting paper from 1993-2003.  If something was obvious to just about everyone in 1993 it's going to be hard for me to find a convert.

I'm not asking about PAPERS - I'm asking about the PUBLICLY STATED POSITIONS and QUOTES of scientists and mathmeticians concerning THEIR opinions on AGW.  And speaking of concensus - SCIENCE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!  The majority, even of scientists, can be and often are WRONG!  Case in point: an astonomer surveyed her colleges and found out 6 out of 10 believed "Carbon Dioxide" was the dominant greenhouse gas in Earth's atmosphere, (Tomkins, 1993).  So much for "consensus".


Quote
Quote
THE TREND IS NOT IN YOUR DIRECTION.

Can I ask for proof?  Or is that not your job either?

I've provided numerous examples of AGW supporters who have recanted - until YOU provide a similar number of conversions THE OTHER WAY AROUND, the burden of proof is on YOU>

Quote
Quote
And you still haven't answered why the other planets in the Solar System are heating up.

Yes I did.  And so did Ian.  We used different sources too.  Search for the keyword "mars"

No you didn't.  You said Mars might be due to dust storms, conveniently leaving out what is CAUSING the dust storms.  Neither you nor Iain have adressed the documented warming on Jupiter, Titan, Pluto,....

Quote
Quote
Depends on what you are using them for, what you are using them on.  I can certainly envision circumstances where the more sophisticated equipment can be spoofed or fooled.




The black dots are the glass tube readings that "Jaws" endorses.  The red line is the Siemens Ultramat nondispersive Infrared Gas Analyzer.  The Ultramat takes readings which are accurate to less than 1ppm.  The glass tube device can claim the CO2 content of the atmosphere can double not only from year to year but within 5 minutes.  (do I really need to explain the insane quantity of CO2 it takes to do that?)


At one location - can easily happen.  Lakes in Africa sometimes release enough CO2 to asphyxiate nearby villagers.
Quote
Which readings do you think are more accurate?  These are the exact readings that "Jaws" debates.

Insufficient data to tell.  Depends on how, when, & by whon they were used.

Quote
BTW, there are dozens of ways to double check the CO2 readings.  One of the easiest ways is to measure the carbonic acid content of the ocean.  Would you like to guess which readings are deemed accurate and which ones aren't?

Deemed don't mean squat - especially since there are multiple carbon sinks at work in the ocean that affect acidity - most of which vary due to environmental effects like sunlight and temperature.  How well were the acidity readings normalized for those effects?

Quote
Once we settle this Jaws thing then we can move on to your 7 questions.
 

Fine - I'll remove your excuse then - I'll STIPULATE, for the sake of the discussion, YOU ARE RIGHT about Jaws.  Your answeers, please.
Quote
If you can't understand something as simple as CO2 content then it's really not worth discussing anything else.  This is very very basic stuff.  The highschool nearest to where I'm sitting right now teaches the science behind CO2 measurements.

I certainly hope you did not mean to come off as smug and rude as that seems to be.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #137 on: May 26, 2007, 10:31:52 AM »
Question for AGW believers:

1.  The temperature increase in the last century of about 0.5 degree C occured BEFORE 1940.
2.  80% of the increase in atmospheric CO2 levels did not happen until AFTERWARD, with the rapid post-WWII industrialization.

So the question for you AGW believers is what field of science known to man has the EFFECT occur BEFORE the CAUSE?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #138 on: May 26, 2007, 10:58:16 AM »
As many do, on 'both sides' you continue to appeal to authority. The opinions of these authorities are interesting and they are entirely possibly correct. They in fact may be correct, but despite claims to expertise the lay person should evaluate where these authorities fall in their own fields. To claim that your authorities are anything more than a minority in their field is incorrect.

Oh really?  Lets look:

In late 1997 the German Meteorologishes Institut Hamburg and Forshungszentium surveyed specialists from the various branches of the climate sciences.  They found that

87 percent of the scientists surveyed in Germany rejected the notion that any signifigant warming due to human activities was ccuring...

That figure was 67 percent in Canada.

It was 97 percent in the U.S.

Not exactly a concensus for AGW! (eco-logic, November/December, 1997 issue, p.21)

Then theres the Leipzig Declaration, the Hiedelberg Appeal, the Oregon Petition, etc,....

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,626
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #139 on: May 26, 2007, 09:23:50 PM »
Quote
Scientists aren't lobbyists.

Snort...chuckle...
In someone's idealistic world, maybe.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2007, 04:33:30 AM »
another question for AGW believers:

If Earth was a perfect "black body" radiator at thermal balance vis-a-vis the Sun, given that it is being irradiated essentially over the surface of a circle, but is irradiating for the surface of a sphere, what is the temperature?


What is the temperature NOW?


Since a theoretical "black body" is the warmest possible body, with all others at a lower temperature, what is the delta between the observed temp and the theoretical maximum temp?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2007, 05:30:03 AM »
http://mises.org/story/2571

I Was On the Global Warming Gravy Train
By David Evans

[A version of tihs article was previously blogged on Mises.org here, and inspired a spirited debate. The author reworked the piece for the Mises.org front page. The blog item remains the same.]

I devoted six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian government to estimate carbon emissions from land use change and forestry. When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty conclusive, but since then new evidence has weakened that case. I am now skeptical.

In the late 1990s, this was the evidence suggesting that carbon emissions caused global warming:

   1.      Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, proved in a laboratory a century ago.
   2.      Global warming has been occurring for a century and concentrations of atmospheric carbon have been rising for a century. Correlation is not causation, but in a rough sense it looked like a fit.
   3.      Ice core data, starting with the first cores from Vostok in 1985, allowed us to measure temperature and atmospheric carbon going back hundreds of thousands of years, through several dramatic global warming and cooling events. To the temporal resolution then available (data points more than a thousand years apart), atmospheric carbon and temperature moved in lockstep: they rose and fell together. Talk about a smoking gun!
   4.      There were no other credible causes of global warming.

This evidence was not conclusive, but why wait until we are absolutely certain when we apparently need to act now? So the idea that carbon emissions were causing global warming passed from the scientific community into the political realm. Research increased, bureaucracies were formed, international committees met, and eventually the Kyoto protocol was signed in 1997 to curb carbon emissions.
"Correlation is not causation, but in a rough sense it looked like a fit."

The political realm in turn fed money back into the scientific community. By the late 1990s, lots of jobs depended on the idea that carbon emissions caused global warming. Many of them were bureaucratic, but there were a lot of science jobs created too.

I was on that gravy train, making a high wage in a science job that would not have existed if we didn't believe carbon emissions caused global warming. And so were lots of people around me; there were international conferences full of such people. We had political support, the ear of government, big budgets. We felt fairly important and useful (I did anyway). It was great. We were working to save the planet!

But starting in about 2, the last three of the four pieces of evidence above fell away. Using the same point numbers as above:

   2.      Better data shows that from 1940 to 1975 the earth cooled while atmospheric carbon increased. That 35 year non-correlation might eventually be explained by global dimming, only discovered in about 2003.
   3.      The temporal resolution of the ice core data improved. By 2004 we knew that in past warming events, the temperature increases generally started about 800 years before the rises in atmospheric carbon. Causality does not run in the direction I had assumed in 1999  it runs the opposite way!

It took several hundred years of warming for the oceans to give off more of their carbon. This proves that there is a cause of global warming other than atmospheric carbon. And while it is possible that rising atmospheric carbon in these past warmings then went on to cause more warming ("amplification" of the initial warming), the ice core data neither proves nor disproves this hypothesis.

   4. There is now a credible alternative suspect. In October 2006 Henrik Svensmark showed experimentally that cosmic rays cause cloud formation. Clouds have a net cooling effect, but for the last three decades there have been fewer clouds than normal because the sun's magnetic field, which shields us from cosmic rays, has been stronger than usual. So the earth heated up. It's too early to judge what fraction of global warming is caused by cosmic rays.

There is now no observational evidence that global warming is caused by carbon emissions. You would think that in over 20 years of intense investigation we would have found something. For example, greenhouse warming due to carbon emissions should warm the upper atmosphere faster than the lower atmosphere  but until 2006 the data showed the opposite, and thus that the greenhouse effect was not occurring! In 2006 better data allowed that the effect might be occurring, except in the tropics.

The only current "evidence" for blaming carbon emissions are scientific models (and the fact that there are few contradictory observations). Historically, science has not progressed by calculations and models, but by repeatable observations. Some theories held by science authorities have turned out to be spectacularly wrong: heavier-than-air flight is impossible, the sun orbits the earth, etc. For excellent reasons, we have much more confidence in observations by several independent parties than in models produced by a small set of related parties!

Let's return to the interaction between science and politics. By 2000 the political system had responded to the strong scientific case that carbon emissions caused global warming by creating thousands of bureaucratic and science jobs aimed at more research and at curbing carbon emissions.
"Science has not progressed by calculations and models, but by repeatable observations."

But after 2000 the case against carbon emissions gradually got weaker. Future evidence might strengthen or further weaken it. At what stage of the weakening should the science community alert the political system that carbon emissions might not be the main cause of global warming?

None of the new evidence actually says that carbon emissions are definitely not the cause of global warming, there are lots of good science jobs potentially at stake, and if the scientific message wavers then it might be difficult to later recapture the attention of the political system. What has happened is that most research efforts since 1990 have assumed that carbon emissions were the cause, and the alternatives get much less research or political attention.

Unfortunately politics and science have become even more entangled. Climate change has become a partisan political issue, so positions become more entrenched. Politicians and the public prefer simple and less-nuanced messages. At the moment the political climate strongly blames carbon emissions, to the point of silencing critics.

The integrity of the scientific community will win out in the end, following the evidence wherever it leads. But in the meantime, the effect of the political climate is that most people are overestimating the evidence that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming.

I recently bet $6,000 that the rate of global warming would slow in the next two decades. Carbon emissions might be the dominant cause of global warming, but I reckon that probability to be 20% rather than the 90% the IPCC estimates.

I worry that politics could seriously distort the science. Suppose that carbon taxes are widely enacted, but that the rate of global warming increase starts to decline by 2015. The political system might pressure scientists to provide justifications for the taxes.

Imagine the following scenario. Carbon emissions cause some warming, maybe 0.05C/decade. But the current warming rate of 0.20C/decade is mainly due to some natural cause, which in 15 years has run its course and reverses. So by 2025 global temperatures start dropping. In the meantime, on the basis of models from a small group of climate scientists but with no observational evidence (because the small warming due to carbon emissions is masked by the larger natural warming), the world has dutifully paid an enormous cost to curb carbon emissions.

Politicians, expressing the anger and apparent futility of all the unnecessary poverty and effort, lead the lynching of the high priests with their opaque models. Ironically, because carbon emissions are raising the temperature baseline around which natural variability occurs, carbon emissions might need curbing after all. Maybe. The current situation is characterized by a lack of observational evidence, so no one knows yet.

Some people take strong rhetorical positions on global warming. But the cause of global warming is not just another political issue, subject to endless debate and distortions. The cause of global warming is an issue that falls into the realm of science, because it is falsifiable. No amount of human posturing will affect what the cause is. It just physically is there, and after sufficient research and time we will know what it is.
D. R. ZINN

mountainclmbr

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
  • Sunset, Casa Mountainclmbr
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2007, 06:58:57 AM »
It snowed again last night (May 29) at my house in Colorado. I heard that Europe was having late season snows too. Just as Nancy Pelosi arrived in Germany to discuss Global Warming. Or is she calling it Climate Change now?
Just say no to Obama, Osama and Chelsea's mama.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2007, 07:39:40 AM »
Why doesnt it surprise me that when Pelosi shows up everything turns gloomy and cold?  She is like the Queen in Lion Witch & Wardrobe.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2007, 09:06:22 AM »
We are at (roughly) 285 degree Kelvin now.  If Earth was a perfect black-body radiator, (the theoretical maximum)  we would be at 288 K.  Since the Earth * ISN'T * a perfect black-body, we are probably near the maximum NOW.  In other words, there is very little room for additional warming.  Partly, this is due to the fact that the Earth;s climate historicly exhibits two stable meta-states with rapid transistions between the two:  ice-age and temperate.  We are currently  * IN * temperate.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Harold Tuttle

  • Professor Chromedome
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,069
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #145 on: May 30, 2007, 09:26:01 AM »
oh, i'm sure we could Global Thermonuclear War ourselves up a few degrees more than normal

but even that would subside after a while
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

wacki

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
Re: Three simple questions, please answer them
« Reply #146 on: May 30, 2007, 05:40:17 PM »
Quote from: wacki
Once we settle this Jaws thing then we can move on to your 7 questions.


Fine - I'll remove your excuse then - I'll STIPULATE, for the sake of the discussion, YOU ARE RIGHT about Jaws.  Your answeers, please.

I think you missed the point.  Even among the skeptics, deniers and industry shills most of them refuse to debate the CO2 record because they know it will make them look like a fool and expose them for what they are.  You just spent a considerable amount of time debating the very very basic concept of measuring CO2 and then agree with me on CO2 (within the very same post) just so I would answer your 7 questions.   My condition was not on "winning a battle" but to simply see if you are capable of understanding the material or removing emotions from the debate.  And in all honesty it seems like you are getting into a quote war without really understanding what you are quoting.

Quote
If you can't understand something as simple as CO2 content then it's really not worth discussing anything else.  This is very very basic stuff.  The highschool nearest to where I'm sitting right now teaches the science behind CO2 measurements.

I certainly hope you did not mean to come off as smug and rude as that seems to be.

I'm not trying to be rude.  But you are shooting yourself in the foot when you debate the CO2 record using some of the arguments you are using.

Here are 10 CO2 monitoring locations:



I used microsoft excel and plotted 8 of the stations readings:



Look at the nice smooth curve with no deviations.  Isn't that something?  Talk about consistent data!

check the data yourself:
http://scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/data/data.html


Now look at Jaworowski's data dots, please not the Y axis has the exact same scale:



You know what else is nice and smooth?  The ice cores!  And what do they line up with?  The super fancy super consistent direct reading gizmo data!

Yet Jaworowski's dots are all over the place.  Jaworowski even references dots that were thrown out by the very people that took the measurements.  And to insist that these CO2 jumps are accurate shows just how little one understands about the situation.  It would require 532.5 billion tons of carbon to make a jump like that. You could burn every plant on the face of the earth and still not release enough CO2.  (current estimates of worldwide biomass is 500 billion tons of carbon.  Thats 32.5 billion tons short.)  Volcanoes only emit 0.2 billion tons per year.  So claiming 532.5 billion ton yearly shifts is "natural" is plain nonsense.  This is pure nonsense and you are going to extreme lengths to defend his stance.  Maybe I'm partly at fault for not being able to explain this stuff properly.  I don't know.  But I really don't know how to make it more obvious.  But I do intend to take a sabbatical from this thread for a while.

If I come back it will be to hone my teaching skills as I think these threads are excellent practice for developing communication skills.  And if I come back we will review one, and only one, concept at a time.  And we will not deviate from that concept until it is crystal clear.  But until then I think you need to sit down and calmly think about the CO2 readings.  In all honesty the debate is over, nothing in this thread really matters, and I really don't give a damn about climate change or the hundreds of millions of deaths that will likely occur from it in the next 400 years.  What I do give a damn about is the wholesale abuse of science and the general publics inability to understand it.  So if you want to keep me interested in this thread I would appreciate it if you tell me what pieces of evidence or concepts I explain are convincing to you.  Scientists are generally piss poor communicators and I hope to make a carrier out of communicating science in the biotech industry.  I'm happy to teach but I need to learn from you just like you learn from me.  Otherwise I'm not really getting anything out of this thread.  And if I can't convince you that the CO2 record is legit then I'm wasting my time at the keyboard.

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #147 on: May 30, 2007, 07:23:46 PM »
I would prefer you address CO2 being apparently a trailing, rather than a leading, indicator myself.

Hinging everything on CO2 from active measurement or ice cores, if it is either irrelevent in the end or rather a response to other inputs rather than a driver, makes focusing on it missing the point when blood or treasure is on the line.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

wacki

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #148 on: May 30, 2007, 08:37:33 PM »
I would prefer you address CO2 being apparently a trailing, rather than a leading, indicator myself.

Hinging everything on CO2 from active measurement or ice cores, if it is either irrelevent in the end or rather a response to other inputs rather than a driver, makes focusing on it missing the point when blood or treasure is on the line.

already answered.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg115545#msg115545

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #149 on: May 30, 2007, 08:54:46 PM »
I would prefer you address CO2 being apparently a trailing, rather than a leading, indicator myself.

Hinging everything on CO2 from active measurement or ice cores, if it is either irrelevent in the end or rather a response to other inputs rather than a driver, makes focusing on it missing the point when blood or treasure is on the line.

already answered.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg115545#msg115545

Quote
        Some people will say "Watch what hapens to your soda as it heats up, the ocean works the same way." as proof of the CO2 isn't changing temperatures.  It is true that colder water absorbs more CO2 but this is a reason NOT to warming up the oceans.  If you are trying to reduce greenhouse gases the last thing you want to do is heat the ocean and cause it to release more greenhouse gases.

The key concept to remember is that if the CO2 lags then CO2 is a positive feedback that compounds warming.  Permafrost melting is one such example of this.  An alternative scenario is where the temperature is stable but some force is releasing CO2.  Fossil Fuel burning is an example of this.  In this case CO2 is not a positive feedback but is a driving force in warming up the earth.  In this situation the CO2 increase will lead the temperature increase.  In any case the CO2 lag debate is not definitive.  The most recent research (Loulergue et al.) suggests that the CO2 in the ice cores may be in unison or even leading the temperature increase.  Even though the paper has withstood several reviews it is too early to make a definitive statement on the timing.

What part of "is not definitive" is "definitive", exactly?

That link reads an AWFUL lot like "this is our take on the extant hard evidence so you should see it our way".
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."